Hi SHs, FD for me. I’ve had one pot of tea so far. I have taken a small tub of sweet potato and lentil soup out of the freezer for dinner and might have a piece of fruit mid afternoon if I feel like it. I’ve noticed that when I do a FD immediately after a day of overindulgence I always feel like doing the FD – they seem to be the easiest ones.

CharliesMun – welcome back. I hope the holidays were worth those extra kilos. With 2 dogs in tow it looks like getting some exercise won’t be an issue.

Thin – glad you are getting some rain, you seem to have had a very dry winter this year. I’m drooling at the thought of your dinner – grilled haloumi is one of my most favourite things.

Merry – I hope the 100th went well. Time for you to get a bit more rest that you have been.

Cinque – I absolutely agree with your description of how different the mouthfuls taste. The first few are fabulous, but it quickly descends into “just another mouthful”. I also love the idea that it can be something as simple as vegemite toast that gives that pleasure. It doesn’t need to be a rich food, just a nice food memory.
I discovered that I need to be careful with things like a tastings plate that some restaurants or cafes offer – every mouthful can be great with those so there’s no motivation to stop eating.

I’m happy that we are comfortable discussing both the everyday and the serious topics. I think it’s a sign that we have built a community on our forum – that really makes me happy. I know every time I log in and talk to you all, I feel safe saying whatever I feel I need to to. That sense of community not only helps me with 5:2, it’s a positive part of daily life now. I really do appreciate all of you and am very glad to have met – even if it’s just online.

Since hitting my target weight I have become a little casual and the weight is gently easing back up; nothing too serious yet, but certainly a trend. When fasting I found it effective not to eat breakfast on my NFDs, which for me is easy. So yesterday I had no breakfast, an apple (Braeburn) for lunch and a few glasses of Ouzo before chicken and veg stew with suet dumplings, potatoes and runner beans about 6pm. During the evening I ate some dark chocolate and some dark chocolate digestive biscuits. Weight loss 1 lb. I’m not sure why that worked, or if it will work again, it was too easy. I will try it again today with a steak pie with a suet crust I made with the remains of the shin beef (but no Ouzo). If it works that will be great, if not tomorrow will be a total no food fast.

Well it is a new day. Hello everyone. Day before fast day for me.

They popped the Obesity Myth Episode 2 on at 7:30 last night, when I was expecting it at 8:30!
But I did catch it, and once again there was lots of food for thought. The main thing that sunk in was the look of fear on the health professionals face when the woman who had lost her excess weight decided to go off hunger suppressants, because obesity is a lifelong disease and if it isn’t being treated it comes back. They said that 90% of those who went off hunger suppressants regained their weight.
The professor said that studies have shown that after 6 years (I think it is 7 now) the hormones have not changed and the hunger signals remain as strong as ever, and that seemed to him to indicate that they are not going to change.
I know this is scary, but the comfort I get is that 5:2 does the trick and that keeping with 5:2 means I can keep at my healthy weight. Reality is my friend.
Happily the woman on the show did manage to keep her weight off before her appt and may be in the 10% success group.
It was great that they could show a good news story when for so many of the people they interviewed are working so hard with so many disappointments.

Well, cold, grey and rain expected here. Dear old Melbourne! Cheers all.

Penguin – if it keeps working you can market it as the alcohol and suet dumpling diet – you’ll make a fortune!
I suspect reducing your normal food to just 1 meal was enough of a calorie reduction to lose weight. That’s essentially all I do on a FD – just eat dinner. I actually explain what I’m doing to other people in that way as well. I say that to keep my weight stable I just eat dinner 2 days each week. The reason I don’t like using the word “fast” is because everybody assumes I mean fasting according to the normal definition – ie no food. What we do is really “fasting mimicking” not true fasting, which generally allows just water.

Cinque – I had my HDD programmed to record The Obesity Myth so I haven’t watched it yet. I’m wondering about that statement of appetite returning to the pre-diet levels. It does, but there are ways of reducing it. In the years since I lost the bulk of my weight I’ve discovered there are things that do help get my appetite down below its constant scream – a healthy balanced diet, no breakfast, very little sugar, very high fibre levels. Balance within meals helps too – it’s never good if I eat mostly just one food group as a meal. I also did a process of trying to work out what was genuine hunger and what was just a desire to eat – I found that very little of what I experienced was genuine hunger pangs and that somehow made it easier to resist the mental message that I want to eat – because I know it’s a false message. When it’s genuine it’s not just a mental message I feel hunger sensations in my stomach & gut as well.
The group of morbidly obese women that I lost that weight with were mostly insulin resistant, prediabetic or they already had type 2 diabetes. Their issues were different – most of them had to stay on the drug metformin or they had trouble losing or maintaining weight, most also found that they had to stick to a low carb diet long term or their food cravings became unbearable – they didn’t have the luxury that I do of replacing processed carbs with high fibre low processed options. Some were really disappointed that they couldn’t include a full range of foods once they got to goal. I think the only way I get away with including grains is because I’ve have never had blood sugar issues or insulin resistance. This seems to fit with the logic behind the BSD which is designed for those with blood sugar issues, it also specifically excludes processed foods and most starchy carbs.

GDSA – Really good news on the kefir. That oyster mushroom & broad bean mix on rye toast sounds lovely. I use oyster mushrooms – they are one of the special foods I’ll add to a stir fry on a FD as they make it feel like a more decadent meal.
The only way to get around the lack of availability is probably to grow your own. Although it might take a trip to somewhere near Adelaide to buy the right seedlings, seeds or seed potatoes so that you can have the range you want – although I don’t think oyster mushrooms would be possible. (I think Diggers have heirloom varieties that you can’t get in the shops – they will send seeds and seedlings by post.)
The quality and price of foods in rural areas is a problem everywhere. My sister and brother in law live on the western edge of the Riverland, so they can get to the outer northern suburbs in just under 1 1/2 hours. They got so fed up with the quality and availability of foods at their local supermarket that they now drive to Munno Para shopping centre fortnightly to do their shopping. Then they only have to do a small local shop for fresh food in between.

Looks like we have all sorts of weather conditions happening at the moment. It’s 18C and sunny here today, but tomorrow’s forecast is 10C and rain.

After Thin’s mention of haloumi it sent me to forage in my fridge – I found several packets of haloumi that I’d bought when it was on sale. So I’m going to grill some to have on sprouted rye toast with baby spinach and cherry tomatoes for lunch – yum.

GDSA, I found the half-price pine nuts that you mentioned and put them in a salad to have with our grilled haloumi last night. It was SO delicious. I put mine in between two huge portobello mushrooms and it was heaven! Avocado makes everything taste gourmet. Haloumi is high in cals though and that was reflected on the scales this morning. Hope yours was tasty LJ.

GDSA again, could you please post your chai recipe? I use whole cardamom pods a lot but, until I made a vindaloo curry a couple of weeks ago, I hadn’t realised that cardamom pods contain seeds. The vindaloo paste required them to be removed from the pods and crushed in a mortar and pestle with other spices.

Good news on the kefir!

Thin – I recorded the Obesity Myth and am just watching it now. I agree that what always seems to be missing from weight loss programs is a focus on maintenance. Everyone seems to focus on losing weight and no-one seems to face the reality, that if you don’t keep it off there was little point losing it in the first place. In fact I think it damages you mentally when you put so much effort into losing a massive amount of weight, only to go back to old habits and regain it all (plus probably more) That sense of failure is damaging to self esteem.

I’ve know people who were 150-200kg who had to follow these strict meal replacement, low carb, very low calorie diets for up to 2 years. When you have followed such a restrictive program for months or years there are several key reasons that you go back to old habits when the weight is off:
– If you don’t know how to eat, you revert to what you know.
If all you know is the way you used to eat and meal replacements, you don’t know what maintenance should look like. I tried to figure it out by observation of what others who aren’t overweight eat, but I quickly knew that I needed some support. I had to sort this out myself by finding a suitable dietitian with my GPs assistance, to support and help me through this process. What no-one recognises is that the diet is 1-2 years and the maintenance is many decades, but all the focus is on the diet.
– You behave like an addict.
On meal replacements almost all foods are forbidden and the moment you are off the program it really is impossible to not binge on all those things that were forbidden for so long. I think there’s a limit to how long we can tell ourselves no. It’s like a dam wall breaking – it has an unstoppable momentum once you say yes.
– They underestimate the power of appetite and cravings.
They don’t realise how strong their cravings will be when they eat certain foods (mostly foods with sugar, starch or salt). Even trying to eat just a little can trigger an overwhelming desire to binge. For those with insulin resistance issues this effect is even worse. Sometimes it’s not foods that are the trigger its social settings, moods, boredom. Anything that used to be coupled with food has a pattern that now needs to be broken.
– While on the diet everyone actually thinks that they can eat the foods they are missing once they get to goal. They know they can’t eat them in the quantities they used to, but they think they can be part of their normal diet at maintenance. If fact I think most of us held the promise of our favourite food in front of us like the carrot on the stick. This was the reward for getting to goal. None of knew this was unrealistic until we got to goal and then tried to incorporate all foods into our diet.
– No-one realises how low their TDEE will be at goal and how careful they’ll have to be. Everyone who did the VLCD program with me was shocked that their after weight loss TDEE wasn’t the widely publicised 8400kj (2000cal) – everyone ended up somewhere in the 1200-1500cal range. And to say that we all felt cheated is an understatement, especially when we realised that our calorie needs were well below the average when compared to others of the same weight/height/age etc. My own TDEE is about 16% below the standard TDEE equations and in my experience that is normal for morbidly obese people and I know 2 people whose TDEE was closer to 30% below average.

I think part of what this obesity clinic is trying to do is helpful and on the right track. But in my opinion they are missing 2 key elements. As a minimum, they need to add psychological/counseling support during the early months of the diet for everyone and nutrition/dietetic education and support as they get closer to goal and beyond.

I agree also agree with Thin, that the real test is whether the weight is still off 5 or more years later. It’s now 2yrs 4mths since I got to my goal weight and it has been a continual battle to stay at goal. The strongest and most in control of this that I’ve felt is with the combination of a dietitian and 5:2. In fact I’m even thinking that I may not need the dietitian next year – I know she thinks I’m ready to take the trainer wheels off, but I haven’t decided definitely yet.

LJ, I found your post really fascinating and so much rings true. I’m in a hurry (and still haven’t read the earlier posts yet) so will read it again tonight when I have more time. The patients seem to have a lot of respect for, and faith in, Dr Joe. I feel this is attributable to his compassionate approach and his continual acknowledgment that none of this is their fault.

But I have real misgivings about the programme. One of the aspects of the diet that I feel is flawed is the shake business. This is not learning to eat properly. That style of eating can’t be doing their gut biome any favours either. Neither are they learning to eat for the weight they want to be. This was why all my previous significant weight loss efforts failed – and as you remark, LJ, I gained all the weight back and then some. Two years was the longest I ever kept it off so I feel some small sense of achievement for passing that milestone. I feel sure that some people still expect me to gain it all back and can’t hide their surprise when they see me after a few months that I am still the same weight. I’m sorry to harp on about the meals shown in last night’s episode but the lady whose (rather large) adult children are her carers is still eating things that I frankly don’t even recognise as food – what exactly was that?

Hi CalifD, I decided to dry the excess grains. The first couple of days seemed to go to plan but on the third day, they became an unpleasant yellowish brown resembling rotting cauliflower and I just didn’t fancy them at all. So, I’m afraid they are now in my compost. I agree with you that cauliflower rice is very bland. I use a lot of salt and pepper when I microwave mine and it only takes about a minute in my microwave.

I meant to comment on something (I think it was you) wrote about some time ago – the person mentioned using a little oil for sautéing some onions and hoped it wasn’t adding too many calories. Did you know that onions can be sautéd gently in a very small amount of boiling water? This is how I make my cauliflower soup. Useful for FD cooking.

I’ve been using a metal strainer all along as that’s all I could find and mine’s going gangbusters. When mine looks like you describe, I strain it. I don’t ever mix it up. Make sure you give it plenty of food next time, i.e. pour milk well over the top of the highest grains. Depending on how your work colleague presented it to you, (had it been stored dormant in the fridge, for example?), it may take a couple of ‘goes’ to get it tasting right.

Hello hello,

I do agree with the criticisms of the Obesity Myth, but I am seeing it in the context of our slow and ponderous health system, different parts of the system in different boxes and the person’s life circumstances and history are often not taken into account.
Also prejudices are often showed by the Health Professionals who can also be arrogant and dismissive.

Given that, and knowing that these patients are coming to the clinic for maybe an hour’s appointment once a month, I am glad of the positive things I am seeing and how much they are able to do in limited time.

I see it as a good beginning, that these people’s lives are being shown on their own terms, and talking honestly about their own experiences. They are being respected and are involved in determining their treatment.

I agree that the patients are not getting enough support and information (and I desperately want to make meals to deliver to them) but we are watching a work in process. It is extraordinary that appetite suppressants are not available on the PBS. Our hospitals are underfunded and research isn’t happening as well as it should, and most importantly the support people need for dealing with debilitating chronic illnesses is great and the support they get is tiny.

For all we know they might have already tried 5:2. They said they end up at the clinic after trying all sorts of diets and programs. I can imagine people trying 5:2 and failing to make it work in their lives, for all sorts of reasons.

I like watching this series because it gives me insight to the current treatments for obesity. It is not that I think them good or bad programs, but that I have learnt that this is what the best research is saying at the moment, and I am seeing how people are responding to the current practice.

And the insight into people’s lives is really precious too. How brave they have been to let us see into their lives.
Ofcourse they are eating huge meals and non food, so much of their lives are distorted, but they are doing their best.

LJoyce those things you have set out re reducing appetite are so good, and should be researched! But I must say that while understanding the psychological aspects of my eating have been important, that hasn’t made the difference that no sugar and 5:2 have been able to make. Understanding emotional eating and the comfort of eating, and nutrition and physiology help me make better strategies. But understanding that they are false hunger signals didn’t help me, the signals were intolerable.
It is no sugar and 5:2 that stop the signals, or keep them low, so that all my other strategies can work. Without 5:2, and if I had (have) sugar, those intolerable hunger signals come back.

We have a lot further to go with medical treatment and with everything else!
And I think I need to read all the posts about the program again later.

Gday, so pleased you got your kefir grains!

Penguin, yay for the carpet laying! And for at least not weighing more!

Cali, glad you are having such fun with the cauliflower rice.

My sister made a lovely comment about cardamom for Chai “Oh look, they come in their own little teabags!”
Madhur Jaffrey’s chai recipe is a lovely one. 8 cardamom pods, 8 cloves and a cinnamon stick. Simmer it for about 10 minutes and then add tea and milk. Used to add sugar too! But the spices add enough sweetness for me now. My sister (another one) likes it without the milk.

Dinnertime, and fast day tomorrow. Cheers all!

GDSA – Once the kefir has fermented I keep it in the fridge.
If you leave it out for another day it will continue to ferment and thicken and will separate into a thick yoghurt with whey at the bottom of the jar. You can shake it back together or spoon the kefir yoghurt off the top. (Mine behaves differently to Penguins- when mine separates the whey is always on the bottom)
Unless you can get through 3 cups of fresh kefir every day, you might want to experiment with how much milk you actually need to feed the grains each day. You may be able to get away with 2 cups milk or even a little less.
I think Thin’s comment on flavour came from Penguins experience. His first few batches of kefir didn’t taste that good, but once the grains had a few days of feeding on milk the flavour improved.

Cinque – you are right. The fact that there are actually doctors that are finally taking a different approach to obesity to the traditional “eat less move more” is a step in the right direction. I guess I am impatient for things to change.
I also agree that unless you avoid your trigger foods the incessant food cravings return. Sugar (in small quantities) isn’t quite as strong a trigger for me as it is for you – although by a small quantity I mean adding 1-2tsp to a dish occasionally. There are certain foods I simply cannot have in the house – I’ve admitted defeat on ever being able to eat a small quantity of things like roasted nuts, and I’m not much better with milk chocolate it appears. I used to be just as bad with cheese, but gradually I have developed a sense of control with it (most of the time) – but it’s taken me years and more binges on cheese than I care to think about.
I also agree that using meal replacements teaches you nothing about how to construct a healthy diet. That was one of my major problems when I got to goal using these products. However there are a few reasons that they are favoured for the morbidly obese by some dietitians and doctors:
– They contain very specific quantities of macro nutrients and each one has 1/3 of the daily requirements of micro nutrients – so health professionals know that their patients won’t suffer deficiencies. It also doesn’t rely on the patient determining portion size – it’s a known quantitiy when it comes to calories.
– Most people who are morbidly obese have addictive behaviours with food. Using meal replacements is as close as you can get to the AA model – if you are an alcohoic you have to accept that you can never drink again because you aren’t capable of drinking in moderation. Most people I got to know who were also morbidly obese had “all or nothing” behaviours with food. We could binge or we could starve but eating in moderation was a skill we couldn’t seem to master on a daily basis. So following a program that removed normal food and severely restricts calories (usually 6-800cal per day) actually fits these behaviours.
– When you have to lose 100kg you need to see fast weight loss to stay motivated, otherwise the journey will feel impossible. That’s why a diet that has such dramatic calorie restriction is used.
– Ketosis is also used by every one of the meal replacement programs that I know of, and the doctor on the Obesity Myth is correct – it really does remove hunger. Some meal replacement programs are severe and aim for carbs of less than 50g per day and some aim for 70-80g per day which only induces mild ketosis. What I noticed was that those people with the insulin resistance issues needed the lower carb level, whereas I did well on the 70-80g carb program.

Although I did a FD yesterday I am thinking of doing one tomorrow as well. I have appointment that will keep me out and about so it would be a very easy day to fast. I might see if I still feel the same way in the morning.

Good evening all,
FD today with another on Thursday. I had only one FD the other week before going on holiday but it did turn into a two coffee and water fast. Good trip and not as hot as last time in the tropics (or is it because I am not as fat as previous?)The day after returning home was a FD not for feeling guilty just to get back on the horse.
Lots of chit chat going on in here with some heavier subjects also. We have all of these mediums through which to convey our own opinions on subjects but don’t be different from the perceived way of thinking as you will be shot down and abused.
Phew to much thinking back to 5:2.
Thinatlast it is a hard sell to others and you do have to be committed to make this work and we do sound like a crazy diet person when trying to explain it Haha.
During the evening of a recent FD I did write up an introduction to 5:2 for a presentation to interested people. I thought I might get to hold it at the local community centre, then thought well I better have some proof for the sell so I will have to get my bloods done again to see any difference from previous. I saved my thoughts to my computer for a later date. I thought of this as the biggest thing about starting 5:2 is the unknown, the fears, will it hurt, I can’t possibly do that. We all had them and then took the step over them fears. Anyway we will see if I can get it together one day.
Merryme if confronted with stress again maybe try a half FD, some extra nibbles of crackers and cheese or carrots and celery sticks and a sort of FD dinner mainly veggies? Just a thought.
Off for my FD dinner.
Meals on FD’s:
2 x white coffee’s 300kj, 500g minestrone soup 800kj, 100g kidney beans 400kj and 150g mushrooms 175kj Total 1675kj or 400cals.

Hi Everyone
I’m from Outer Melbourne and would like to join in with you guys as I really need to be accountable. I’ve just come home from a 6 week holiday and also went to Bali for 2 weeks before that with 3 girlfriends and I’ve put on some weight.
I’ve been at goal weight 3 times in the last decade but just don’t seem to be able to do the maintenance. – hence my nickname- it will be a constant reminder. Haha
I am 5’6″ with skinny legs and wrists with most of my weight tummy and boobs. My present weight is 62.4 kilos and I want to be 57/58. My weight fluctuates a lot, mostly because we do socialise a bit. Today, coincidentally I’m having lunch with the gfs I went to Bali with and then my daughter and her family (her hubby and 2 kids) are coming for dinner. (All catch ups from us being away for so long)
I fasted yesterday and did well. Today I will do 16:8, and no wine!

Good morning everyone!

Hi StayinThin!
Welcome here! I’m another Melbournian (inner city).
I hope joining us is just what you need to help make 5:2 a sustainable part of life. Being with people doing the same thing should help!
Cheers for your fast yesterday and good luck today!

Joffy, great to see your post, and excellent that a load less fat made surviving the tropics much easier.
Your intro to 5:2 sounds such a good idea!

Gday, nice news about your kefir, I’m getting more interested again!

Charliesmum, good luck today. You can pass the pizza test!
I’m fasting today also.
Cheers to Thin and anyone else fasting today!

I want to ask everyone a bit more on the Obesity Myth issues.
Do you think that what they described as ‘more hunger’ is the same thing as ‘false hunger signals’ and ‘the hunger dragon’. Or are these slightly different?
And do you think the intensity of the intolerable, insatiable false hunger signals get worse the longer people have been obese, and the more obese they are?

Cheers all,

Good morning SHs

I have decided to attempt another FD today, although as I just needed to take an anti-inflammatory tablet, I ate a banana as it has to be taken with food. That’s a lot earlier than I like to eat on a FD. But I need to head out the hospital at 11:30 and I’m planning to go to the gym and the supermarket after my appointment. That should keep me out and busy until about 3pm. I don’t mind having an unusually early dinner on a FD when necessary, so I’m hoping today will be ok.

StayinThin- welcome, glad to hear your first FD went well. I also do 16:8 most of the time and find the late start to food each day and the “curfew” at night to both be very helpful.

Joffy – glad to hear you had a good holiday. I’m sure the lighter weight made a lot of difference to how you coped with heat and humidity. I know how difficult I found hot weather when I was heavier.

CM – I don’t envy you trying to do a FD when confronted with pizza – hope your salad substitute works out.

Cinque & Thin – I’m not sure how much overlap there is between the hunger signals that occur for the morbidly obese and the cravings that sugar causes in a wider portion of the population. For most of my life “hunger” was constant. It never went away and it was difficult to distinguish between feeling hungry and craving food – to me they felt like the same thing. I could choose not to eat but that didn’t stop the hunger messages. I could eat a large meal and that didn’t stop the hunger messages. What I didn’t know at the time was that it wasn’t hunger – I know now that the message was completely brain generated and not associated with my digestive system.
There are things I’ve learned along the way that helped me understand what was going on with the incessant drive to keep eating:
– when I did the VLCD meal replacements the mild ketosis did reduce that feeling of constant hunger. What it didn’t address was the patterns – when you have long standing patterns of eating they can be hard to break regardless of whether you feel less hungry. There were a dozen different reasons that I overate and only one of them was hunger. I was very motivated at the time and mostly found that I could stick with the very low calorie limit, but there were others in my support group whose head just wasn’t in the right place to be tackling this. They needed to address some of the emotional baggage first. (I absolutely believe that doing this before I started made a lot of difference.) Using ketosis and appetite suppressants (which I did not use) removed one of the reasons that obese people overeat, it doesn’t address the fact that food has become the response to sadness, anger, depression, loneliness…
– during maintenance I started doing 16:8 and found the hunger messages were more manageable. I wondered whether part of this is that part of the hunger hormone process is signals to tell you when you are full and it’s time to stop eating. This message never works in me – never has and still doesn’t, I have to work it out without my body helping me. But, knowing when you are full implies that you have eaten something, so if I haven’t started eating yet then I delay when I have to deal with this. So by limiting the number of hours that I choose to eat reduces the time that I have to be vigilant about portions and stopping points.
– 5:2 has helped as the FDs allow me to live with feeling hungry. In the first 2-3 months I had a lot of binge issues on the NFDs, but over time these have become really rare and tend to relate to brief incidents (like the bertie beetles on Sunday) rather than a whole day of overeating. This is an enormous improvement for me, because the starve-binge cycle was an old pattern for me that I had to change, even though it has been a slow process. I think the combination of 5:2 and the dietitian’s support has made the difference with this.
– while on 5:2 I’ve also been working with a dietitian and she’s been leading me through a mindful approach to food and eating. I knew that there was a complete disconnect between the hunger that I was feeling and whether my body actually needed food. To illustrate how poorly this system works for me – I can have eaten so much I feel physically sick but I’m still getting mental messages that I need to eat.
One of the things I did a few months ago that made an enormous difference was to get in tough with my hunger. I did one week where I ate only when I was genuinely hungry. That meant understanding the difference between the constant mental messages I get about needing to eat and the sensations in my stomach or gut telling me I’m genuinely hungry. Every single “hunger” feeling I had I analysed to work out if it was genuine. If not, I didn’t eat. If in doubt, I didn’t eat. By the end of the week the way that I felt I could tell the difference was by only accepting hunger as genuine if there was a stomach/gut sensation of hunger. I was astounded by how few of the hunger messages I get throughout the day are genuine hunger. That doesn’t mean that I don’t give into the mental messages sometimes, but mostly I can choose to delay eating and ignore those messages.
– I’m sure the cravings that are triggered by the release of sugars from simple carbs exacerbate the problem, because what I eat can make the desire to eat much stronger and harder to ignore. My current diet seems to be helpful in limiting this.
Hope that answers some of the questions you had.

I’m finally home again and sitting down to a most welcome pot of tea.

I had an appointment at one of our big public hospitals today to determine whether I continue to qualify for access to my rheumatoid treatment drug. Thankfully I met all of the blood test and physical exam requirements. Although the script still has to go to medicare for approval codes, there should be no difficulty getting the next 6 month of access to treatment. It’s always such a relief when I get the next 6 months approved.
When sitting in the waiting area it’s always a confronting experience that puts my illness in perspective. Today, there was another patient waiting for the same clinic in a wheelchair and heartbreakingly there was also a child of about 4 who clearly had juvenile onset rheumatoid arthritis. I walked into there easily and without aids and I’ve only had to deal with this disease since I was 38 not 4. Seeing how hard this disease has made the lives of some others really makes me count my blessings. I’m very lucky that the treatment drugs have worked well for me and have prevented some of the severe joint damage that I see others having to endure. It really does makes me feel like I’m one of the lucky ones.

Cinque I don’t blame you for swapping FDs – I would have too in those circumstances. Despite my early banana consumption, my appetite is under control and this should be a fairly easy FD. Being busy and flitting from place to place really helps as a distraction from food. My stomach is grumbling but I can wait another hour before starting dinner prep – an omelette tonight with mushrooms and asparagus.
I agree about how non-specific hunger is as a word and how confusing it can be to workout whether the signals we are getting actually mean our body needs food.
Earlier this year, my dietitian asked me to read a Rick Kausman book “If Not Dieting Then What”. I did every activity suggested in that book and I learned a lot about my body, hunger, cravings, food choices, eating patterns etc. I also got better at using mental focus to delay eating and mindfulness to limit the amount I consumed and to eat because I was hungry and not just wanting to eat.
In the activity that I described in my earlier post, where I focused on recognising genuine hunger from a desire to eat or cravings, the book provided a list of things that can be the body telling us we are hungry. This was enormously helpful because I finally knew what clues to look for. The list in the book was a compilation from things his patients had told him.
The list of hunger clues:
• an empty or even a painful gnawing feeling in the upper part of their stomach
• an empty or even a painful gnawing feeling in the lower part of their stomach
• a rumbling feeling in the stomach
• a cramping feeling in the stomach
• a hollow feeling in the stomach
• a feeling of nausea
• a feeling of weakness or lethargy
• feelings of lightheadedness or irritability
• difficulty in concentrating
• feeling a bit shaky
• decrease in energy levels
• headache
• no feelings in the stomach at all, but a desire to eat
• many other specific individual signals.
Hunger can be one or a combination of these things and just to confuse the issue, some of these symptoms may have nothing to do with hunger.

Apart from the last 2 items on this list I regarded any of the other symptoms as genuine. What actually happened was a desire to eat was very frequent. Every time I felt this I asked myself: Am I actually hungry? Do I have any other symptoms that confirm I’m genuinely hungry? Is there anything which makes genuine hunger likely or impossible (eg I’ve eaten recently, or I haven’t eaten for many hours)?
Once I have mentally worked through these questions and made a written record I then decided whether to eat. My activity for that week was to eat every time I identified genuine hunger and to not eat when I felt a desire to eat but believed this was not genuine hunger.
There are many sensations on this list that I never experience and several things that often occur when I feel genuine hunger: an empty feeling or rumbling in my lower stomach or a hollow feeling in the stomach. If I don’t eat when I feel this I will sometimes feel lightheaded or notice a decrease in energy levels within a couple of hours.

There was a detailed mindfulness process described in the book to help me with this process until I got used to it and simplified it as I described above. The full text of this activity is:
“Take a couple of deep breaths.
Focus your attention on your mouth area — your teeth, tongue, lips and throat. Are there any physical sensations there that tell you that you might be hungry? Is your mouth dry or moist? Are you feeling thirsty?
Now focus on the upper area of your stomach — the area just below your rib cage. What sensations are you feeling? Are there any noises?
Now focus on the lower area of your stomach — are there any sensations there? Do you notice any differences between the upper part of your stomach and the lower part? Does one feel more empty and the other more full?
Repeat the exercise.
Have any other physical sensations become apparent in your mouth or upper/lower stomach?
Now pay attention to your whole body. Do you feel high in energy or low in energy? Are you feeling weak or tired? How is your concentration? Are you feeling comfortable or irritable? Have you got any images of food in your mind, and are you thinking about what would be nice to eat?
Try to notice anything about your body generally, that might be telling you that you are physically hungry.
If you were to rate yourself so that 0 was absolutely empty, 2 was getting empty, 5 was full, 8 was overfull.”

This comes from: Kausman, Rick. “If Not Dieting, Then What?” (pp. 76-78). Allen & Unwin. Kindle Edition.

This is an activity that my dietitian has encouraged me to continue using as much as I need to. It has been incredibly helpful. Nine months ago I was binge eating 1-2 times a week, now it happens once every 1-2 months and is usually not an all day out of control event as it used to be. I think it’s one of the biggest changes that gives me hope for the future. This in conjunction with 5:2 helps me manage appetite and overall calorie intake. By adding healthy food choices into the mix I think it gives me a fighting change of staying this weight long term.

If anyone else is having difficulty with this issue I would recommend trying this activity. If nothing else it helps you get in touch with your body so you understand better what it’s trying to tell you.

Back after a visit to my daughters and then a nap on the couch.
this morning got hectic with home help here and changing plans.
So I didn’t get to say how wonderful it was to hear of Mr Thin watching buzzards circling: in blue sky, over red earth no doubt.

I hope you have a lovely night out and can enjoy your friends while playing with your food. (I think I’d have soup and then an entree size salt and pepper squid for main).

LJoyce, isn’t Rick Kausman great. And what a great list of hunger symptoms. I need to think about my list of different types of hungers and then how these symptoms work in.

Hi Cali! Goodmorning to your side of the world!

Kefir. I think mine may separate in the fridge because I have been harvesting it after 24 Hours when it is still fermenting. I probably have the coolest kitchen . That is cool meteorologically not stylistically – the outside temp today has varied between 10C and 18C as the fronts came through and we do not yet have any heating on. Today’s batch had been left for 48 hours. I took about two thirds of the grains off the top to make cheese and put the rest and a litre of full milk in to ferment. The kefir is thick and creamy. We will taste it tomorrow.

Autumn is upon us. A lovely sunny morning, so I spent three hours cutting my grass. Rain at lunch time so I popped across into Wales to buy a book I particularly wanted and found it sunny and relatively warm. Back home and it was the same. Picked possibly my last runner beans – they don’t like the cool evenings – and my butternut squash. The grass has grown long around the squash tubs and I realised today that the local wild life also likes squash. Not as many as I had hoped, but certainly enough for a few curries.

Out for a meal tomorrow night with the MG owners club. I have sold my MG but the rules are generous, an interest in the marque will do. We are going to a country pub with a limited but reasonable menu. OH has ordered the fresh mackerel, I have gone for the bloke’s safe option – burger, pickles, fries. I usually opt for something I can’t cook myself or haven’t had before, but I don’t know this place and anyway I like a good burger and haven’t had one for some time. Since OH is a one glass drinker and can therefore drive home, I may also have a couple of beers. The calorie count doesn’t matter. The last few years have taught me that exceeding my TDEE doesn’t always show on the scales, and if it does a FD will cure that.

CalifDreamer. Yep, thats when I get it wrong, eating whilst reading. A habit I got into when I was single and after 50 plus years of marriage I haven’t lost. Have a good trip. Good night/afternoon(?).

Good morning,
It is my fast day take 2!

What a lovely social life you are having, Stay!
That wine, it can be so tricky on 5:2. You didn’t come across as a raging alcoholic, just very identifiable with (if that is a phrase!)

Enjoy your MG burger Penguin!

Happy fast day Cali!

Here is a video of Rick Kausman, just incase anyone is interested, it is a good example of what he is about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znvrc_rJwKI

there is a bit of weak sun outside. A good day!

Thanks for the link Cinque. I’m a poet. I’ve just watched it.

Good morning all. Since reaching my original goal weight a few weeks ago I stopped logging my calorie intake in my fitbit app. From doing this religiously every day since Feb I became slack and missed a few days then didnt bother at all.

Ive decided to start logging food again from today as it keeps me accountable. Even though I have a fair idea now of the calories in the food I consume it can be a wake up call to see the numbers on the app if I happen to eat more than usual. I also miss the data on calories in and calories out the app provides as I still log all my exercise on it so without logging food I have no comparison.

MissD starts gymnastics classes tonight and Little Athletics begins again for the season in a few weeks time. Ho hum more rushing around. Thank goodness daylight savings starts soon so I will ‘feel like’ I have more hours in the day Ha Ha.

Have left the kefir to brew longer this time so it will be 48 hours when I get home tonight. Can’t wait to see what it looks like.

I should be fasting today but my app says I’ve already consumed 450 cal by midday (ahh) so deciding whether or not to eat any more for the day or just move on and fast tomorrow. This is what happens when I dont plan ahead.

GDSA – not planning ahead is a killer for me too – that’s not going to get easier as your life gets busier.

CM – really pleased to hear you survived pizza night. I understand the evil seductive appeal of potato chips. They are one of the things that’s permanently banned from my shopping list – it’s an occasional handful at parties only – then I have to quickly move away from the bowl so it doesn’t turn into several handfuls.
The Obesity Myth is a documentary currently showing on SBS – it’s set in an obesity clinic in Melbourne. It’s stirred up both emotions and discussion for some of us.

I’ve finally decided meals for the day. Lunch is cooking and I’ve made a pot of soup for ready for dinner. If I time this carefully I might get to have some of the newly baked bread with my soup.

Thin, that’s exactly why I did it. It was all happening too fast, so I thought that if it was ok to leave the grains in for 3 weeks while we’re away on hols, then why not try it for normal production. Works for me!

Oh….and yeah. I’m on for a coffee. Glad to see we started something. Anyone else out there in “the ether” like to join us, you’re very welcome. Seriously, we won’t kidnap you!!

Thanks for the update on Obesity Myth. Will try and take a look if/when I get a sec. Yeah, right!

Some interesting work by Adelaide Medical School just hit my computer. Apparently the use of artificial sweeteners increases the risk of diabetes by changing the way the body responds to glucose. Diet drinks and Splenda were implicated. Heavy use of sweeteners by someone who had not previously used them showed changes in two weeks.

LJ. I was particularly interested because my kids and grand kids all drink diet Pepsi because they are convinced it is healthier. I have tried to persuade them otherwise but since I started 5;2 a few years ago my own food habits have been seen as a bit strange, a view reinforced when I started to take an interest in my gut flora, eating sauerkraut and drinking kefir.

I agree about taste changes. Until I was about 30 I would take two spoons of sugar in a cup of tea. Now I find that repulsive. Until recently I was a milk chocolate eater. Now my choice is dark, preferably chilli flavoured. I like sauerkraut, which also amuses the kids – I lived 10 years in Germany without acquiring a taste for it. I grow masses of tomatoes and have always cooked with them, but only now am I teaching myself to eat a raw one.

Lunch will be a small pork pie of my own making and an apple. I will try the zen of that. With tonight’s burger, today is not turning out to be a healthy day. I will have to eat large amounts of green stuff tomorrow.