“this months GI News from Sydney Uni has an interesting note on ” Keeping it off ””
Agreed that this is an interesting read, Tarkeeth, Lichtle.

That’s more or less the pattern that I followed. I used to drop some weight and then I’d plateau for some time (the plateau just happened, it wasn’t intentional) and this repeated until I reached my original goal weight (130lbs). That was the point at which I learned that I have low muscle mass/high body fat which was horrible news at the time but I decided that I needed to maintain for 6months before deciding what to do next.

After 6 months, I decided to start reducing my body fat so started on that and repeated the loss and plateau pattern until my present weight (approx. 108lbs) at which I’m maintaining. It will be interesting to see if I can maintain at this level. (I’m concerned that any regain will be solely body fat and it will be very easy for me to be in the normal weight obese category as it’s known as that’s judged on BMI and body fat level by Dexa scan. At 130lbs with a BMI of <23, I was in the normal weight, morbidly obese category.)

Interesting SSure, how did you know you had low muscle mass and high body fat? To go from original target weight of 130lbs to 108lbs is quite significant. What made you go for that weight – did you just think lets see how low I can get on 5:2 or did you have 108lb as a new target weight?

Hi Honjie,

We haven’t met before but from reading your posts I like your style. It’s good that the ribbing you used to get wasn’t meant cruelly, but of course that sort of thing still hurts.

Mine wasn’t kindly meant. My father couldn’t forgive me for a) being female, b) being short, dark and fat, c) being academic rather than athletic and finally and probably worst of all d) having a flair for foreign languages which, as a committed xenophobe, he regarded as the most heinous of my sins.

If he wanted a tall, blond, leggy athlete of either gender with not too many brains and a total blank where other languages were concerned, he shouldn’t have chosen my small, plump, intelligent mum whose extended family included several French nationals – her aunt eloped with a French croupier, but that’s another story. 🙂 As a teenager she would regularly visit her French rellies and from an early age she taught me little bits of French. More importantly, she made me realise that ordinary people, people in our own family spoke other languages and it was a great idea to be able to communicate with them and others like them.

All that was a long, long time ago. It took me a long time to get myself together but as a mature student I went to a good uni and came away with modern languages degree, qualified as a teacher and taught French and Spanish for five years before finally finding my real calling. For 24 years I’ve been a freelance translator, something I love and according to colleagues and clients am rather good at. And thanks to 5:2, a lot of the fat has disappeared, too. 🙂

Hi Happy, it’s a pity that they were still shooting the “starving refugee” line in the seventies, which I always thought was a more enlightened era.

Re winter fasting. This is when soups come into their own. It’s amazing how low in calories some really hearty soups can be. If you can’t be bothered to cook soup every day, maybe make a bit potful and freeze it in portions. Cats and hot water bottles are also an excellent solution.

Oh yes you will Happy! And enjoy it!!! P 😉

Hello Lichtle, “What a feat!!!. Interesting as I had wondered if a BMI of under 20 at our age is just a nostalgic dream”. Thank you – as I’ve said elsewhere, I seem to have had a mostly invisible weight loss as nobody has commented on it (apart from DH, and I swear he’d never have noticed if he weren’t the one recording our weights at the weekly weigh-in).

BMI is easy to apply when assessing people but (as you know) it’s not at all helpful for guiding the choices of an individual. In many ways, it would be more helpful for me to have another 20lbs of lean body mass (I’d be a BMI of 23) as it would reduce my risk of CVD, diabetes etc. But, post-menopausal women with sarcopenic obesity are not male teenagers with a hormone profile that is pushing them towards muscle development, we don’t do that.

Oddly enough, with an additional 20lbs of LBM (which would put me at the low end of LBM for women my age/build), my shape probably wouldn’t be very different, my muscle definition would show nicely because I’d have a body fat of approx. 20% rather than my current level of approx. 26%. 🙂

Ha, PVE! Another Scottish connection. ‘Angus’ cattle are all developed from Scottish cattle (native to Aberdeenshire and Angus, hence Aberdeen Angus).

Re: long fasting window. I do think it’s worth emphasizing that 5:2 is amazingly effective for weight loss but is not the only IF protocol that provides health benefits. I know there are some 5:2 ‘purists’, and this is obviously a 5:2 forum, but, especially for people who can’t maintain on 5:2, it’s good to know that all is not lost!

So you’re travelogue will be coming to an end soon then? I think someone else will need to take up the batten and take us on a journey round their country!

Hello Ssure, had to google sarcopenic obisety, how ignorant am I… :)) I find it amazing that you lost so much weight and such low BMI and still think you have a body fat of 26%.
Whilst I have often bemoaned the fact that I seem to lose fitness so much more quickly and gain fitness more slowly than in my younger days, I have oddly never thought much about the fact that there is LESS “muscle mass”. I just thought it was my body repairing more slowly. I have no idea what my body/fat mass ratio is but you are right a BMI of a 20 year old must be very different to that of a 50 year old hence the different shapes.
Do you think it would be important for an individual to know what the fat v muscle % is before deciding on a target weight?

This discussion re body fat vs lean body mass is interesting. I do know that one of the things that happens as we age is that we gain fat in particular areas to protect us if we have a fall. So seems reasonable the body fat/lean body mass is meant to change and weight loss possibly won’t have any effect on it. Any dietitians on this forum? 🙂

Lichtie, your comment 21% – 24% body fat = fit women, 25% – 32% body fat = healthy/acceptable range is interesting. I had my body fat measured at the gym a few years ago. At the time I was very thin and very very fit, quite a few years younger and my body fat was still 26% which I really couldn’t understand and thought maybe their measuring techniques weren’t as accurate as they could be. They used an instrument a bit like pincers and just grabbed bits of fat and measured. The people who took the measurement told me my body fat was too high. But maybe this body fat is more complicated and important than I thought. I’ve lost 7kg and have no idea how much of that is body fat. I thought I read on one of the other links there were scales you could buy that gave that information. I don’t see how a set of scales could do that though! 🙂

SSure, I am so very sorry to hear about your accident which exacerbated your tendency for lower muscle mass so that they almost had no chance to fully gain strength again. Life can be such a struggle when you lack energy and stamina – when the head wants to do all these things and the body won’t play along. It must be so frustrating for you to have to listen to people who don’t understand and make hurtful comments.

I did not know that body mass/fat/muscle figures are currently being reviewed. It seems that like the BMI these figures are also quite arbitrary and a lot more complicated.

I totally get your frustration re oversimplification and lack of guidelines for a significant number of people who are square pegs being pushed into round holes. The obesity crisis is now such that “if you can’t see the fat it can’t be that bad”. Lets fire fight and treat the people who are fat on the inside AND on the outside first. I believe it really boils down to lack of resources and reliable long term studies.

I have often thought how very little is really known/understood about how our body absorbs, uses and stores energy and why people differ so much. The fact that it was the year 2012 that fasting was popularised by a TV programme proving that there were genuine health benefits and was not just for some weird cranks speaks volumes. Why did it take that long? Incidentally there is an interesting little kindle book (free) called: “The No Breakfast Plan” written in the late 1800s by a medical doctor who observed that very critically ill people would recover from serious illness when totally abstaining from all food since the body can go into repair mode and doesn’t need energy for digestion. He was called a lunatic and dangerous.

Ssure I am so very impressed by your knowledge, dedication and courage, overcoming difficult medical issues. What enormous encouragement and support you provide here – I love to read your posts. You can be so proud of yourself.

I’m so happy to have found this thread! I’m 54 years old and started with 4:3 in July 2013 (5’4″ and 134 lbs, which is heavy for me) and reached my goal (116 lbs) in January 2014 (before that, I was really frustrated – just couldn’t get the weight off with normal calorie restriction diets and exercise). I decided to move my goal a little lower to try to get rid a last bit of round tummy and am now between 110 and 115 lbs consistently, sticking with a slightly relaxed 5:2 (but lots of exercise). Disclaimer: All of these weights are without a stitch of clothes on, before eating, and often after running in Texas and sweating buckets, so they may not be totally honest, but they make me feel good!)When I first reached my goal in January, I couldn’t find a thread on maintenance and just now decided to check back.

I have several question/observations I’d love to hear everyone’s reactions to. First, when I went in for a routine checkup, my doctor took me to task for weighing too little! I was very surprised, as I expected to be congratulated. At the time I weighed 118 lbs, and she said that research showed lower BMIs in middle aged women – particularly white women – put them at increased risk for osteoporosis. I did some reading and found that she was right about the research, but I still lost an additional 5 lbs because I just couldn’t see the value to my health of having a few additional pounds of fat around my middle. I’m eating healthy and doing weight-bearing exercise, so hopefully I’m OK. Has anyone else had this reaction from their doctors?

Also, I notice that when I do put a pound or two back on, it goes straight to my middle – my whole life before this I struggled with weight on my butt and thighs. Must be changes in hormones, but that means I REALLY had better not gain that weight back if it’s all going to go to my belly! I find weighing every day and going back to 4:3 if the weight creeps up (mainly because of travel) takes care of things. This is great psychologically, because I feel in control even when the scale goes up a bit, and I don’t panic.

OK, I know this is getting very long, so one last question. I find that even though I’m thin now and I do lots of ab exercises, my stomach isn’t as flat as it used to be in the days of my youth. I also notice that some older (70s and 80s) women who are quite thin still have a large protruding belly (my grandmother was this way). I had thought maybe they just carried all their fat there, but now I’m wondering if there’s a muscle or membrane or something that holds abdominal organs in that just get loose with age for women. Has anyone heard of this? Very depressing question, I know, but if that’s the case, perhaps there are ways to avoid this. 🙂 Thanks!

Hi Lucy in the Sky,
Have you tried Pilates? I had been doing it for 3 years before I combined it with the 5:2 and the difference was phenomenal. It works on the core muscles, and in fact you can tighten up your core muscles anytime, anywhere. It will also help guard against osteoporosis so there’s one in the eye for your doc! Try doing a weekly class and maybe ten or fifteen minutes a day the rest of the week. Hope my tuppence worth helps!

Hi LucyintheSkye your height is similar to mine (5ft3) and I am now 112lb. Unfortunately last month I have not been able to lose and am now taking it easy and maintain. not sure I want /need to lose more. I was interested to hear your doctor’s concern re Osteoporosis – as I have been diagnosed a couple of years ago. However since I started Menopause at the age of forty, I have been on HRT ever since and apparently that is supposed to help with the osteoporosis. this means I have not had the menopausal problems like hot flushes and changing body shape (just seemed to put on weight very slowly).

But my observation also told me that the body shape of more mature ladies seem to change even if they stay the same weight.

@Honje I am happy to hear your suggestion that Pilates can counter this because I have been wanting to start (got the books and CDs) This will definitely give me another push and motivate me to start exercising.

Hi Honjie,

I don’t feel the need to know what you all look like and it would be odd to put faces to you all! Like reading a novel where you visualize the heroine as Sandra Bullock and then they film it with Uma Therman….!

Hi Lucy,

I’ve also heard that carrying a bit more weight may be healthier, but I haven’t seen the research. Maybe the thin women with brittle bones were actually malnourished or long-term smokers rather than being slim as a result of healthy eating and exercise?! I don’t blame you for ignoring your doctor. It seems that a lot of doctors don’t really know much about natural health, can’t treat it unless there’s already a pharmaceutical treatment, and don’t realise a lot of the snake oil they peddle is being funded by big business….

Re: larger belly in older women. Some of it could be poor posture? Also, maybe the weak muscle theory could be true? Child-bearing weakens stomach muscles and in some cases causes splits. So particularly if you’ve had kids, core strengthening should probably be a priority. Or support underwear!

Hi Hermaj,

You are an inspiration to all of us that you want something, you’re never too old! I agree that school to uni to job isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. It would have been nice to have been a fully formed person before deciding what I wanted to be for the rest of my life!

Do you have a deadline for the dissertation? You’ll be a sad, but temporary, loss from the forum!

Good morning all.

Regarding the osteoporosis discussion, there’s been also some discussion on the ‘lose 2lb per week …’ thread which you may find interesting if you haven’t already read it. Amazon has a professional background in the area.

Two fantastic B2B fast days and 830C consumed overall so very pleased. Last night had 50g grilled WA crayfish tail and salad for dinner. They were going cheap at local fish wholesaler (frozen) a few weeks ago. Buttered OH’s before grilling and popped some sliced potato on the grill to top his up.

Happy Wednesday all.

Hi all my wonderful MC mates. So much to read and respond to and we have to hit the no service road again:(
Hermaj as a fellow mature aged student I couldn’t agree more. We bring experience to our studies.
As to faces Happy is right I mentally imagine you all. Fabulous characters: )
And our fat is only on our tums now too. I also think it will require massive muscle toning to hold it in. Cheers all P x

Will do Nicky! Opsimath Purple

Hi Hermaj,

My OH was also a late starter, coming good after a less than auspicious start! He definitely experienced life before ‘settling’ on something.

Glad to hear dissertation is on track, and not too long to go. Good luck with the rearranging. My job involves review ing, reading and writing every day so I am very familiar with getting it all on paper and then making a flowing argument from the stream of consciousness!

Woah up, Hermj, don’t leave yet, you will enjoy this story.
Feeling the need to do some exercise after another 4 hour drive (yes we in Australia are quite happy to travel the distance from London to Scotland any time), we headed off on a coastal bush track that promised a beach at the end of 1.6km (1 mile). The undergrowth was thick, the path sandy and narrow and absolutely no sign of an end to it. I was conscious of snakes, only an idiot wouldn’t be (OH), when I stopped dead in my tracks and whispered to OH, “Tiger Snake!”. He didn’t take a photo, which really surprised me. I stood very still as it slithered slowly across the path and turned to look at me. I am not afraid of snakes but have a deep respect for deadly ones right in front of me. When it eventually moved off, I ran as fast as I could past that point. We made it to the end of the track, found it didn’t actually go down onto the beach and headed back into the bush. I rolled my socks over my jeans, grabbed a stick to wave in front of me and stomped the whole way back. The theory being my loud banging would alert the snakes and the stick, I’m not sure what, but I felt happy waving it around. OH thought I looked as if I was divining snakes! How rude! He laughed the whole way. Well you have no idea how quickly we got back. My heart rate was roaring, sweat pouring down my back, vision gone all blurred, so we drove to a gorgeous little lonely beach and drank wine, ate cheese and biscuits and watched the sun set as pelicans paddled by. Beautiful.
Looking back…I can laugh now. I must have been quite a sight and we DID get a good workout! OH is now on the computer trying to identify the snake. They all look the same to me. All seem to mention the word “venomous” too! P 🙂

BTW Happy, you’re dad is SUCH a champion. Pity he and Tim can’t get together!
Hope you are better tonight, Tim. Must have been a fever if you couldn’t eat. xx P

Purple, you catch me on my lunch break and I’m allowing myself a quick peek at the forum. As you can imagine, your snake story scared the bejaysus out of me. How very bravely you dealt with the slithering thing and, as you say, you got a jolly good workout from the incidence. The cheese and wine were well deserved.

You were also incredibly brave to return to higher education with a household of six and a long commute. All I had was hubby mark one and a trip on the tube to central London. I don’t think I could have hacked it otherwise.

Your mention of philosophy, I wanted to read psychology, which was often teamed with philosopy, but my innumeracy got in the way. However, I went for an interview at a college of the uni, where I was interviewed in turn by two academics, both Australian.

The first one was a pleasant and fairly gentle encounter with an older chap. The second one, with a somewhat younger prof, was hilarious. The departmental secretary, whose office was nearby, said she had never heard an interview like it with all the peels of laughter as the prof and I debated whether either could prove to the other that there was a hippopotamus in the corner of his room (didn’t Wittgenstein talk about something similar?) I was offered a place but it later occured to me that if I was going to do what some regarded as “irrelevant” arts degree, I might as well to something I’m good at. So I switched colleges and subject and the rest is history.

It’s a pity your dad didn’t live to see you graduate. Mine was alive and well when I got my degree and while other family members joined in the various celebrations I didn’t even get a “well done” from the old man. In fact, I later learned, after his death, that he didn’t believe I’d ever been to uni, because he had never seen a photo of me in cap and gown.

The reason for that was the modus operandi of London Uni. While within a couple of weeks you got a piece of paper to show to potential employers or academic institutions if you were continuing post-grad, the actual graduation ceremony took place many months later – back then it was 18 months – by which time many graduates, including me, had gone off the boil and didn’t bother. The degree certificate with the uni coat of arms was more meaningful to me. And as I was disinclined to boast, it never occured to me to go and wave it under his nose.

Right, back to my working-class heroes.

I attended my graduation the next year to prove to mum I had done it. Pathetic, isn’t it? I know dad would have said “I knew you could do it.” Sadly mum never said anything positive until she was very old and suffering from dementia. Finally stopped criticizing. Very sad. A lesson to all of us. P

Congratulations, opsimaths, well done all of you. I really admire your determination and discipline. Bay 🙂

Hi bayleaf thank you. I noted that you said that you lost the weight in three months following fasting AND reduced Carbs. You got me onto something –

Whilst looking around a bit I came across Michael Moseley’s twitter account. I wondered who he was following. Very interesting people indeed. One caught my eye and that was Dr Briffa (a medical doctor) who published the book: “Escape the diet Trap” I checked it out and basically he advocates a very low carb diet (including whole meal) omitting any processed and sugary foods. This is what I used to do (in a moderate form) when I used to eat according to the principles of food combining. Starches were automatically reduced because you only had it in one meal a day and processed food was completely out . I followed this periodically and always lost weight but more importantly I always felt very well doing it and sugar craving did diminish. Unfortunately a birthday party or any excuse to be sociable flung me off the wagon (mainly eating sugar) and I found it hard to jump on again. Meat, nuts, butter, good oils was all encouraged exactly as Dr Briffa advocates – apparently he is still in favour of fasting.

Now I haven’t lost weight for over a month and resigned myself to “maintaining” because I felt I didn’t want to reduce my calories even more. I don’t know if this is in my imagination but I felt that my BMR had dropped and I was fasting two days a week and eating TDEE 1400cals on other days and still stagnating. I started worrying that I could never eat my TDEE for seven days a week ever again. I appreciate that I may not have counted calories correctly all the time (self delusion human error) but then I don’t want to spend the rest of my life counting calories EXACTLY. That would constitute an eating disorder in my eyes.

So (after all this waffle) I am giving this no carb (or very low) no processed food or sugar a go but will continue fasting one or two days a week. However on the non-fasting days I don’t want to COUNT just fill up with healthy food. Thank you for your inspiration Bayleaf.