Sometimes I wish I could have my own personal control group….
This topic contains 991 replies, has 70 voices, and was last updated by Cinque 2 years, 3 months ago.
This is an interesting article/blog about how it’s possible on a ketogenic diet for the blood sugars to go up, when most research says they go down. It’s a slightly difficult item to read because the author is a vet and can sometimes assume more knowledge in his audience than they actually have!
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
I think I understand what he’s saying. If you are on a low carb ketogenic diet your muscles during exercise use the fats that are drawn out of your fat cells and taken into the muscle. Your blood glucose is preserved for brain function and emergencies, so your muscles are programmed to “refuse” the glucose in favour of fat. So insulin can’t push any extra blood glucose into the muscle cells. Your liver and brain will use it, but meanwhile it’s a little bit higher than normal in your bloodstream. If you have a fasting blood sugar test at that time, it may register this higher glucose. But if you have an HbA1C test, which measures the three month average, it will be normal. Or else as he says, eat enough carbs to come off Keto for three days before your blood test, which will normalise the fats and sugars cycle.
This is interesting, though mildly depressing.
http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/36.html
I suspect that the 5:2 technique may improve the odds, though I have no evidence for that. But the advantage of 5:2 is that you can decide to do it and implement it immediately, whereas most diets require thought and preparation ( eg buying special foods), and you need to run them without breaks for a while. So instead of thinking “I must diet, but I can’t start yet because it’s x’s birthday/Christmas/ a wedding ” etc. you can combine fast days with any of those.
There was a programme last night on the BBC about digestion and the gut, where they showed some film of the vagus nerve area in the stomach. Michael Mosley was presenting it and had swallowed a tiny camera. Pictures were shown after eating a large meal to show the stages of digestion. Also quite a bit about bariatric surgery.
I’ve been thinking about how muscle mass, and whether you wish to lose, gain or regain it, might be an important consideration whilst on the 5:2 diet.
In particular, how this might affect the calculation for caloric consumption on FD’s, and choices as to which types of food one should consume and/ or avoid.
Without having gone through all the posts in this particular thread – has anyone come across any scientific literature that addresses these concerns, directly or indirectly?
Hi Apricot – just saw your previous post: https://thefastdiet.co.uk/forums/topic/related-science-articles-people-might-be-interested-to-read/page/3/#post-145943
Very helpful indeed! If I find anymore like these, I’ll share them here as well.
IndyNadaJones, I see you’ve been on the thread about muscle loss too, cross referencing here: https://thefastdiet.co.uk/forums/topic/muscle-mass-loss-with-adf/#post-147768.
I’ve not read the Volek and Phinney book yet, must do so before I give it to my friend. They are both into sport as well as being high reputation researchers, so could be a good combo.
What’s your TDEE? As BigBooty said on that thread, you only need a quatrter of it, which might be more than 600cal. But I think those articles have a lot to say about fat and protein percentage increases too.
Posted this in another thread on this site, but thought I should share it here as well:
Found a related article on Muscle Mass Loss from Jason Fung, which I will also be posting in the science thread as well: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-muscle-mass-fasting-part-14/
Basically, he emphatically says that fasting does not burn muscle – NO.
What is interesting though, further down in the article, he refers to another paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11147801) which states that “The metabolic response to fasting involves a series of hormonal and metabolic adaptations leading to protein conservation. An increase in the serum level of growth hormone (GH) during fasting has been well substantiated”
They then tested the hypothesis through the reverse i.e. by artificially inducing a reduction in GH serum levels, and found that there appeared to be a correlation between muscle loss, following a (induced) reduction in Growth Hormone serum levels.
The conclusion therefore, is that during fasting, the body takes steps to protect whatever muscle mass it already has at the time.
I find this comforting, since with 5:2 fasting, we would not be depriving our bodies anywhere near the amount of nutrition required to cause a reduction in GH serum levels. I suspect that this might also be true for 4:3 fasting, and possibly even for ADF fasting.
Of course, I am not an expert in the field, and clearly more research is required.
Yes, I thought that interesting, too. He has a discussion of it in his book.
Here’s a discussion note on a paper about fasting and insulin which I found very interesting, too.
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Fasting%20insulin%20and%20weight%20loss%20on%20a%20water%20fast
I’m not planning a long water fast anytime soon, but it reflects what Michael Mosley’s “Study of One” (ie himself) found, that his blood markers dropped after three days and the HGF (growth hormone) went up. Interesting too that in this study after the initial drop after three days, insulin remained at that point for the rest of the six week water fast in the study. In other words, if you really need to drop it, go on a three day fast then come back onto foods that don’t raise insulin substantially (ie, lay off carbs and sugars but raise your dietary fats). Hyperlipid also discusses some research which showed that cream and butter did not raise insulin while Polyunsaturates did.
Thanks for that, Cinque. Not as reassuring perhaps but I’m highly in favor of getting as much information as possible to develop the whole picture.
I’m not sure my case illustrates their point:
• I am most definitely less hungry on 5:2 than I am on a restricted calorie regimen. That’s why I completely fast on my fast days. This was true from the very first week. In fact, it was how much more comfortable I was in my very obese body from the very beginning that encouraged me to continue.
• It’s also significant to me — and not addressed in that study — that I have a quality of hunger on 5:2 that is distinctly easier to deal with than the compulsive sort of hunger I typically experience on a restricted calorie diet or a non-restrictive diet that doesn’t include intermittent fasting. I have far more success resisting the non-obsessive hunger of IF.
• Although my weight loss most certainly slowed to a crawl after 3 or 4 months what’s different about 5:2 is that I continue to be willing to follow the program at 6 months.
• Also not addressed in that study, I continue to feel significantly better on a daily basis whether fasting or eating when I follow my IF program. And that, again, explains my enthusiasm for IF from the beginning and now that weight loss has slowed.
I hope there will continue to be more investigation of topics like this that clarify and give us more direction. In the interim, I’m continuing to IF while I believe that other areas of my health than just weight are improving.
Hi K-Lo:
And then there is this: http://www.timesofisrael.com/want-to-lose-weight-make-breakfast-your-big-meal-and-have-dessert-with-it/
Tried to reply to Simco’s post last night but for some reason the post wouldn’t post. There’s an interesting paper that Simco put in some of the advice to newbies a year ago which is worth revisiting. http://www.diabetologia-journal.org/files/Kahleova.pdf
It’s about frequency of eating, but there’s a telling little sentence in part of the introduction: “Observational data suggest that eating meals later in the day may influence the success of weight-loss therapy, even in humans. It has also been shown that fat storage increases during the day and is the greatest after an evening meal”. I know that there’s been some criticism of breakfast studies because some were funded by Kellogg’s et al., but I did read something about mice a few weeks ago that suggested something similar.
I also read something about why we sometimes get the evening munchies: the storage is greater in the evening because we are diurnal and the body is anticipating being without glucose input while we sleep, so it stocks up a bit, particularly in the liver which is fast access. Of course, to stock up you will have plenty of insulin activity, especially if you have high carb at night (eg those biscuits when you come in from an evening out). The insulin shuts the doors on fat release until it has subsided a few hours later.
Some of you might find the blog of Its The Woo interesting. She is a nurse who at 16 was obese with polycystic ovarian syndrome. She tried to get help from her doctor and an endocrinologist but neither could do so. She began to self treat on a low carb diet and documents some of her experiences. She also began to study the nutritional and endocrine issues relating to her situation and those of others. Her blog has been running since 2001 and is most interesting, with a good index down the side. I’ve pasted one from a more recent point, but it’s worth going to the beginning and reading her early ones ( second link). She is very well informed, though I suspect there is some confirmation bias ( which most of us suffer from).
http://itsthewooo.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/why-people-reject-ketogenic-diets-even.html
http://itsthewooo.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-min=2001-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2002-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=2
Here’s a very thorough piece of research comparing Low carb and low fat diets over a year.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/1/23.full.pdf
This was placed on a different thread by HappyNow. I suspect it will go on stirring things, so useful to have here. “The National Obesity Forum report that’s caused all the hoohah this week was published on the Public Health Collaboration website, together with their alternative healthy eating plate…
https://phcuk.org/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36345768
The National Obesity Forum suggests eating fat is good for us. Sadly Public Health England aren’t going to be changing dietary guidelines any time soon…
I’m loving the rebuttals to the report!
Some other experts comment on the report here…Prof John Wass, the Royal College of Physicians’ special adviser on obesity, was quoted as saying “What is needed is a balanced diet, regular physical activity and a normal healthy weight.” If only we’d thought of that…
http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-new-report-on-diet-as-published-by-the-national-obesity-forum
Here’s a discussion by Gary Taubes about why it’s difficult to shift an established scientific perspective. Long but worth reading and most relevant to the arguments going on in many countries about diet. He makes the useful point that when a paradigm has become well established, the vast majority of hypotheses about something different will actually be wrong. That’s why established scientists (even very good ones) tend to take a while to change their minds.
And another good paper here.
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v65/n11/pdf/ejcn2011132a.pdf
Here’s a meta analysis comparing the “Mediterranean Diet” with low fat diets. The Mediterranean diet is better on blood markers and for loss maintenance.
http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(11)00410-4/pdf
One issue relating to Mediterranean diets is what they actually consist of. Michael Mosley is quite clear on this: it doesn’t include lots of pasta and bread! The Predimed Spanish research was also clear in that grains were limited to rarities along with sweets and red meats. They used two Mediterranean style diets, one with added nuts, which turned out to be the slightly better of the two.
Very good researcher, Longo, isn’t he? Always a plus when the researchers point out limitations. I think this diet as he describes it might be useful for maintenance if one’s uneven lifestyle or work demands made 6:1 difficult. (Or if one suddenly realised the scales had gone up!)
I’ve just been exploring issues of raised insulin and how long after a meal it stays up. Also related to that, low carb eating. This site is useful
http://www.dietdoctor.com/yes-a-low-carb-diet-greatly-lowers-your-insulin
I’ve discovered that whey powder, which I got to help with my protein balance/hunger after exercise, raises insulin quite sharply. This was a surprise as although I knew that protein can also raise insulin I didn’t know it could do it to that extent. Does anyone know a means of using the powder in any sort of mix that would mitigate the effect? Clearly I don’t want to reduce fat burning, but also I’d like to use up the whey powder, which was pricey! Several ketogenic diets use it eg Volek and Phinney, David Ludwig, Michael Eades.
I’ve just read a paper that compares a low GI diet with a low carb diet. This is useful because in some senses they are both on the same side, ie lower refined carbs. What interested me was the improvement in blood test items.
http://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-5-36
Here’s a good paper from 2012 showing the differences in later hunger and eating to satiety after eating different meals: refined oats, steel cut oatmeal and omelette with fruit. It was carried out in the Children’s Hospital in Boston with overweight and obese children.
After the omelette and fruit, children ate much less later in the day than when they had eaten either of the oat breakfasts. There’s a discussion of insulin and glucagon responses too, and the way that the refined ‘quick’ oat breakfast inhibits lipolysis, ie fat burning and increases hunger later.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/103/3/e26.full.pdf
I’ll endorse that, Cinque! My weight increased steadily after I began a series of jobs entailing driving constantly, sometimes over long distance, as well as sitting in meetings, writing reports and doing observational research (mostly you don’t move much!). I think, though that the correlation is not the cause, but rather the basket of things that go with it: less time for exercise, eating on the hoof (often fast carby food and sandwiches), raised cortisol through stress, snacks, etc. The driving is merely a marker for the rest.
Hi:
Longo, fasting and MS: http://www.neuroscientistnews.com/clinical-updates/fasting-diet-reduces-multiple-sclerosis-symptoms
Useful, Simco. I know someone who could use that info.
I’ve been exploring the range of essential amino acids that can only be got through diet because the body doesn’t manufacture them. I suspect that my food cravings may stem from insufficiency in some of them as well as the standard model of high insulin causing glucose deficit and lack of access to fat.
Wiki is useful for this, especially if you follow the leads through for each amino acid, as it gives a list of foods for each. Surprising how many are in eggs, nuts and seeds, lentils and beans as well as meats and fish. The articles do get into the realms of biochemistry, which I had to ignore as I don’t understand it, but there’s plenty there that’s comprehensible.
I extracted some info for each AA, but it’s made a rather unmanageable document to post, so I’ll leave those who are interested yo do the same.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid
Ditch the statins, embrace your cholesterol!
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010401.full?sid=cfb00014-f0a8-407d-ae71-a3278160ca49
Here’s one looking at the effects of carbs and dietary fats on blood (‘plasma’) and trying to separate out which causes a rise in fatty acids in the blood.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
And here’s one I found when prompted by Annette52 and her 10k run.
http://www.metabolismjournal.com/article/S0026-0495%2815%2900334-0/pdf
An anti-aging drug that also reverses diabetes? http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/here%e2%80%99s-the-latest-anti-aging-drug-in-the-works/ar-AAhu0qG?ocid=spartanntp
Two studies on 20:4 eating windows:
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