Hi Glenda:

Timing is not important for weight loss. The important thing is how many calories you eat in a day, not when you eat them.

Here are some tips: https://thefastdiet.co.uk/forums/topic/the-basics-for-newbies-your-questions-answered/

Good Luck!

What a shame .. the article isn’t fully available,

Michael are the better times of day to eat than others or is that specific to an individuals circadian (or other) rhythm or is the scientific evidence simply pointing to evidence that restricting food intake to a limited time each day is beneficial.. ie not specific to a particular time of day.???

NB Am in maintenance and interested in the IF for continued health rather than weight loss now.. so when to eat is a big question I would like to understand better.. at the moment I’m eating in the evening only for 3 – 5 days a week.

Tuesday can only be effectively concidered a fast day if you only consume 500 calories in total, so if you consume a lot more calories after 6 pm then no it isn’t a fast really. You can start eating normal on Wednesday for it to be a 2 day fast .

Hi Lucy and welcome:

5:2 is a weight loss diet. It works because of calorie restriction. It does not matter when you eat your calories: https://thefastdiet.co.uk/forums/topic/the-basics-for-newbies-your-questions-answered/

Good Luck!

Hi Happy:

You are confusing a proven weight loss diet with some kind of eating pattern that provides some kinds of hoped for benefits yet unproven. If you have any clinical studies that prove some kind of benefit from pattern eating, rather than belief or hope, I’ll be happy to read them. As of today, most studies that show IF has some benefits focus on the calorie restriction caused by IF, not benefits derived from not eating any food for a short period of time.

Most people seem to use eating windows in an attempt to eat less food – the concept that they will eat fewer calories if they only eat in a certain time period. I have seen people start with 16:8, and then go to 18:6 and then to 20:4 as they find they can easily eat lots of calories in a very short time. But if it helps them eat less, fine. Actually, the book that popularized the 16:8 eating window states that as long as you eat only in the 8 hour period, you can eat as much of anything you want and lose weight at incredible speed. I’m surprised more people don’t do it!

The general belief is that by not eating for, say, 16 hours, the body will get into ketosis and burn fat. It has been shown that ketosis is a good state for the body to be in. However, few people, if any, go into ketosis after only 16 hours. Many don’t hit that state in 24 or 48 or more hours, depending on the size of their glycogen stores. And even if they do make it in the 16 hour period, they will get out of it the second they eat food, so the length of time their body is in ketosis is measured in minutes. There is no proof I am aware of that a few minutes of ketosis is beneficial. All studies show a need to be constantly in ketosis for days on end for it to have any beneficial effect. That is why Dr. Longo’s research shows that water fasting for at least four consecutive days is necessary to derive some of the benefits that do come from ketosis/longer term fasting. As you know, Dr. M rejected that approach as undoable for the average person.

If people want to eat by the clock, they certainly are free to. But there is absolutely no evidence it will help them lose more weight faster, or provide ‘other health benefits’. And, especially for newbies, it adds a level of complexity to 5:2 that is unnecessary for it to work. Plain old 5:2 is clinically proven safe and effective as a weight loss diet and I am happy to leave it at that.

Hi Simco,

You do know you’re posting here on a thread titled ‘Why WHEN you eat matters’….? 🙂

Hi Simco,

Interesting I’m sure. But what’s your opinion on climate change? 🙂

Link to the full article referred to above:

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/47/16647.full

It’s got a lot of information in it. Thanks to the authors.

Simco,

It was PVE who introduced the climate change analogy, I was merely pointing out that you confused global warming with climate change in your reply. Your argument that the sun has a greater impact than anything we could do doesn’t of course mean that our actions aren’t having an effect…

To get back to the subject of this thread however, you say I am confusing a proven weight loss diet with some kind of eating pattern that provides some kind of hoped for benefits.

By ‘proven weight loss diet’ I assume you mean 5:2? I assume if it is ‘proven’ that there been rigorous scientific studies of 5:2 (as proposed in the book)? Could you point me in the direction of the specific research that compares 5:2 (as Michael does it) with other IF protocols?

On the subject of Michael’s now famous results, just because he chose to skip lunch and managed to lose weight does not mean that is the best or optimal model for weight loss. He chose it because it was a WOE that was doable for him. He has made IF accessible to the masses.

I have not had the benefit of reading the full article referred to here, but I’m sure you have, so you could perhaps enlighten us about the abstract reference to the benefits of longer fasting windows (as little as 16 hours) which result in amongst other things a metabolic shift to fat burning?

You also suggest that even if a longer fast does enable ketosis, it is a short lived state that ends the minute you eat. But what if I don’t break my fast with carbohydrate? Surely ketosis must continue?

Hi Matrika,

Nope, the linked page clearly states the item requires a subscription to PNAS….

I’ll email the author and ask for an electronic copy!

Nama and HappyNow…I just tried again, it’s fine for me. I think it must be based on where you are logging in from. I’m in Australia and the link was in a newspaper article here.

I’m sorry I can’t copy and past it, it is very long.

It is also quite technical but I would happily pay for it if I had to, it is a very good article and quite inspiring if anyone has lagging enthusiasm for keeping on.

Not possible to summarize, it is very information dense. I am a bit frustrated, I thought I was doing a good thing giving that link. I am really sorry it isn’t working for you guys.

I think it is worth going to a good library with the title and getting them to locate it for you (if you like information).

Thanks Matrika
Also in Australia and would have to pay. P 🙂

http://www.watoday.com.au/technology/sci-tech/the-52-diet-helps-beat-cancer-and-alzheimers-study-finds-20141125-11ts30.html
This is a free article and has the link to the paper as :-
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/47/16647.full
I didn’t have to subscribe to anything to view it.

I’m with micheal here.
There does seem to be an eating pattern that enables the human body to become primed for DNA repair.
With semi fasting getting near that point. But since were all different . The difference is when the focus is for fat loss or for health benefit that has nothing to do with fat loss.
The statistics are proving that long term calorie restriction is a factor in longevity. But why is that?
I would point to how the Body reacts to calorie abstainence and at which point it turns from digestion metabolism to a DNA repair metabolism. Guessing that dealing with foreign matter foods stuffs are a great priority , but when the intake stops and has metabolized the body shifts to repairing from within and does so with certain predictability.
Going out on the limb and guess is the window of eating 4.5 hours is best for DNA repair without incurring other health problems long term. There are some types of nutrition the body needs to “see” or access the DNA to determine if it needs repaired or not. So it’s a combination of nutrition and calorie abstinence that makes so elusive.

I truly wish micheal the best of luck in pursuit of meal frequency research. There seems to be more benefits for calorie abstinence of 19.5 hours to 96 hours. Than the 3-4 meals a day that coincides with the obesity epidemic.

I just called my state library (NSW) and they can’t access it. I think how I previously accessed was via the article in a News Ltd paper and they had probably paid for two days access (or something).

I don’t use a printer, have a paper free set up, otherwise I drown in paper.

Not too sure if I can actually print from the two day access…does anyone know?
Happy to pay for access and go print at the library (if it allows print)…wouldn’t be pleased to pay for access and then have only two days to read a follow links to referenced articles. Don’t want a years access to all articles.

The 2 days pay for access only allows access from the same computer…

Thank you acctg,

This link worked and was very easy to down load as an adobe file. I had been trying to find a free and downloadable version. Well done!

I am starting the diet tonight, and looking forward to connecting with everyone.
thanks,
acctg

I find over the past month that I have naturally gravitated to the 16 (or more) hour time frame. I have diner at 7pm then nothing (the evening snacks are my downfall!) until noon or even later the next day. I’ll have a 200 calorie portion and a pot of tea then around 7pm the remaining 300. This seems to be a rhythm that works well for me. Having just read the article there seems to be evidence to support this for other health benefits besides weight loss.

I really appreciate the information. I am doing ADF for health reasons, so the research is very inspiring for me.

I am grateful that this information is being disseminated because it has occurred to me that the pharmaceutical companies are probably not going to be thrilled that so many ailments are possibly going to be avoided and healed simply by not eating.

So, thanks goodness for great science journalists and the BBC doing the work and spreading the news. I sent the article to my GP.

Interesting concept but not new for russian people. I grew up in Russia and most famous saying from Russian general from 1812 is: Eat breakfast alone, share lunch with the friend and give your dinner to your enemy. I guess he was right all along. My parents used modification of it – You need to eat your breakfast (and believe me, we are talking about very large breakfast, spaghetti and meatballs for example), you never know when your next meal will come. May be that’s why we did not have obese or overweight epidemy in Soviet Union.

Simco, similar to you stating that people should not introduce exercise too early when starting 5:2 for fear that too many life changes may undermine the long term adherence to fasting, anecdotal evidence, time and time again, on this forum, indicates that many, many fasters find delaying eating as long as possible on a fast day makes fasting much easier.
Whether you believe eating in a limited window has health benefits, or not, delaying the first food of the day makes fasting significantly more doable and, therefore, long term sustainable. PVE

Hi Happy:

You are right – an 8 to 12 hour mouse window equals, given the numbers I work with, about a 48 to 72 hour human window – which is unhelpful. So the question becomes how do you reverse it so that what works for a mouse equals human time? You have to reduce the mouse window into that of a human day, which is why the human window is smaller than the mouse window. As I say, that is hardly a precise exercise. (And using one year to 30 would require that humans eat all of their calories each day in a couple of second eating window to achieve the same results the mice enjoyed.)

PVE – The discussion does not revolve around when you should eat on a diet day. I constantly give the advice that many people find one evening meal high in fat and protein works best on a diet day.

The issue revolves around non diet days. If you believe the research cited in the Mattson/Mosley et al paper above, the best thing to do is to eat early in the day and eat little or nothing later in the day – see my post above. However, the paper suggests this would be inappropriate, which is why I asked the question.

Speaking of eating windows, the same Mattson/Mosley et al paper cites research that people eating all of their meals in a short eating window experience higher blood pressure, higher blood sugar levels and higher cholesterol levels and one even concludes that it is the calorie restriction, not the window, that makes the positive difference in results. But the paper states (without citations) that eating windows might be a good thing to incorporate into your eating pattern.

I happily go with the flow of research – knowledge in this world is changing and expanding daily. But I think the research on eating windows is unclear at this time. Until it gets more ‘confirmed’, I see no reason to make a very simple and effective diet more complicated by injecting the clock into daily eating patterns. If people want to do it, however, that is certainly up to them and if they live longer, lose weight faster or feel better doing it, etc., great! But if people ask my advice, I won’t advise that they do it – today. However, new research may have me advising it tomorrow. Or pointing out that it is just another urban myth. Research will decide!

Hi PVE:

I play around a lot with it for various reasons – sometimes use myself as an unscientific study (see my exercise experiment in my exercise post). I also don’t do it when I travel – by choice, not because it can’t be done. So while I started 5:2 about 20 months ago, I have actually been on it quite a bit less time than that.

Overall, when I do it, I do 5:2 only. I never count calories – on either diet or non diet days. I usually don’t eat anything on diet days because if my goal is to lose weight I figure I might as well eat less rather than eat more. And it is easier. On non diet days I eat whenever I want to (normally). Some days twice, some three times, sometimes once or twice combined with ‘throughout the evening’ with friends at a pub or party. I eat foods I want to eat – I do not restrict carbs, fats or protein – or favor any one of them. I enjoy everything from bagels to well marbled steak, whisky and beer to vegetable juice.

I have lost 40 pounds since I started. My weight loss pattern has been steadily down in the sense that I do not lose 10 pounds and then gain 5 and then lose 10, etc. I do have plateaus (as I define them in my plateau post – one month or more), always because I am eating quite a bit on my non diet days, not because the diet has stopped working.

I don’t worry about the other ‘health benefits’. The research shows weight loss is often accompanied by lower blood pressure, better cholesterol numbers and better triglyceride numbers. The research does not show that IGF levels improve (in fact, going from memory, Harvie’s research indicated they went up, and aside from Dr. M’s in the program, I’m not aware of any reports of a decline).

I’m quite happy being 40 pounds lighter, and look forward to going down some more. It is a nice change from the multi-year increases I am used to experiencing. And the fact that I can eat normally really helps in continuing with the program.

I think you know I believe 5:2 is a very good diet. That is one reason I try not to make it more complicated. It is proven safe and effective for weight loss, and if a person wants to lose weight, I believe it will work just fine if they do it right. If they want to also superimpose timed eating, not eating certain foods or making sure to eat others, or anything else, I have no problem with that. You know, whatever works for them!

But I don’t believe any of that is necessary to achieve good weight loss results with 5:2.

Thanks Simcoe for your detailed response. Your experience is a great contribution to the greater knowledge about 5:2 🙂
I agree, we are all simply unscientific experiments. Fascinating, isn’t it?
Cheers PVE