simcoeluv. It has been an interesting few days since you posted the cancer chapter contents. I did some research on nutrient dense foods, that is not going to be as difficult as it sounds, I have been eating many of them without realising their importance. There are some new ones – I bought some kale yesterday. Being a an older country man I have always regarded kale as animal fodder, so I am having to check out recipes. But generally I don’t think this will require any unacceptable major changes, I will just plant more green leafy things in my veg patch and fewer potatoes.

I think that Longo gets a lot of stuff right. However he is not the ultimate authority in everything on health and ageing. Even some of the stuff that Longo says in his book are misinterpreted by those that read it with bias. He never says you don’t have to eat a lot of protein to build muscle. If you never turn on MTOR you won’t build muscle. Protein turns on MTOR. He does state that you should eat at least 30 gm of protein at one time each day. If you are older you need to eat quite a bit more in one sitting. If you have a low protein intake and spread it throughout the day you will not build and retain muscle. Research also shows the lucine is the key amino for activating MTOR. the minimum required is 2.5 grams and is age dependent. Older people can require up to five grams (so about 60 total grams of protein in one sitting). I wouldn’t consider 60 grams in one meal low protein. It’s easy to get the required lucene from animal products, not so easy from vegan sources although it can be done.

Studies are often at odds. One of the key indicators on health span and life span is how much muscle tissue do you retain. More protein= more muscle = longer healthier life. But many studies show that if you eat a lot of protein you have an increased risk of cancer. Can both be right?

I think there are multiple factors at work when it comes to protein. Certainly there is no need to eat huge amounts of it. And getting complete protein from a source not contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics would be a big step in the right direction. Getting the right dose and combining it with resistance exercise sounds like a winning combination to me.

As simcourlove points out Longo doesn’t mention lectins by name but most of the chemicals that make foods toxic for people are indeed the proteins called lectins. I think his suggestion to eat what your grandparents ate is a good rule of thumb but certainly not infallible. My grandparents ate lots of cow dairy products and guess what? The milk protein casein (a lectin) is very inflammatory for me. Same for whole wheat but I’m not celiac (another lectin in the bran is the culprit). Longo’s recommendation to eat lots of whole grains is a very bad one for me. If you want to know what foods are inflammatory for you get a food intolerance test like Cyrex and you will know for sure.

Longo does support time restricted eating and suggested that 12:12 is optimum and points out that some studies show that shorter times are counter productive. He quotes Dr. S. Pandas studies and that made me scratch my head because Dr. Panda says that 9 hours is optimum. Longo also says eat your breakfast and stop eating at least 3 hours before you go to bed. Panda’s studies in chronobiology supports this too.

From my own testing of IGF1 over the last decade I know that I have to eat a huge amount of protein to make the test results move. Even at 180 + grams/ day my test results are 50% lower the minimum recommended range. Perhaps my genetics make me insensitive to protein? Maybe I’ll live a long time? LOL

I do love Longo’s research and results on five day fasting for apoptosis, autophagy and stem cell regrowth and increasing the efficacy for cancer chemo treatment. This is ground breaking stuff and just an amazing way to reboot your body. Bravo Dr. Longo! I have incorporated this into my routine (fasting mickinging style) and will attempt a 5 day water fast next.

simcoeluv/diverdog. Interesting thoughts. That is another routine I may have to change. I currently do resistance work two or three mornings a week and take my protein in the evening. I am also very much out of the habit of eating breakfast, so I am exercising after 14-15 hours of fasting. I have found limited time eating, combined with fluid only fasts, an effective way of initially losing weight and now keeping it off. Judging from the interviews I have seen, Dr Longo doesn’t like fluid only fasts unless under medical supervision but I think I have now done enough of them to know how they work and I will continue. I have never done five days of fluid only but I have managed three before so we will see how that goes.

Sim, the kale was surprisingly OK, and it was the major component of the meal. I have never been a great lover of parsley – coriander, basil and thyme being my preferences – but I am currently radically revising my food choices, so who knows. I have ordered my vitamin C, they are currently out of stock so that book may be having other impacts. Yesterday I achieved 30 different food stuffs in one day- as long as you count a large variety of salad ingredients and some seeds as different foodstuffs. My gut biome should be happy. If you regard it has the arbiter of our moods it probably is – I feel good today.

cornish-jane. No half measures here. Following simcoeluv’s briefing on the Longevity book, which I shall order when it becomes available in UK on Thursday, I googled high density foods. Kale came out as just about the best – name a nutrient or vitamin and there is a reasonable chance it contains it. Lots of recipes for it on the BBC Food site. Being a simple soul I did the first one – blanch the kale, stir it round a pan in which you have fried off some anchovies in their own oil, with garlic and chilli flakes, mix the result into spaghetti. Surprisingly good. There are lots of vegan alternatives. ( I assume even a small amount of anchovy counts as fish and is therefore out)

That should work. I have also seen a recipe with beans, shallots, lemon juice and spices that sounds good. I have been growing veg for years, but like everyone who learned from his Dad and Grand-dad I am a little old fashioned – potatoes, broad and runner beans, shallots, lettuce etc. Last year for the first time I grew chard – there are a whole lot of new veggie experiences for me to sample and some of them taste better than expected! This year my greenhouse will have more than tomatoes and capsicum.

Hi simcoeluv,

I’m confused about your statement that Longo shoots down the belief that 16:8 (time restricted eating) is good for you. I read him as being overtly supportive of time restricted eating. Eg In the Kindle version at location 867 he recommends ‘observe time restricted eating’. And he suggests there to avoid eating between 8pm and 8am, and says ‘A shorter eating window (of ten hours or less) can be even more effective for weight loss’, albeit with some reservations about possible side effects.

As for shooting down missing breakfast? Yes, Longo does suggest eating breakfast, referencing two studies:

Cahill, L. E., Chiuve, S. A., Mekary, R. K., Jensen, M. J., Flint, A. B., Hu, F., & Rimm, E. (2013). Prospective Study of Breakfast Eating and Incident Coronary Heart Disease in a Cohort of Male US Health Professionals. Circulation, 128(4), 337-343.

Uzhova, Fuster, Fernández-Ortiz, Ordovás, Sanz, Fernández-Friera, . . . Peñalvo. (2017). The Importance of Breakfast in Atherosclerosis Disease: Insights From the PESA Study: Insights From the PESA Study. Journal of the American College of Cardiology, 70(15), 1833-1842.

My current reading is that Longo simply accepted others’ research in making this statement. I personally have reservations about the methodology of this other research, and see the conclusions as an overreach. There is a big difference between showing some quirky association in the outliers of population numbers and concluding cause-effect.

Penguin, if you want a book on the nutrient density of different plant based foods, I highly recommend this book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eat-Live-Amazing-Nutrient-Rich-Sustained/dp/031612091X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517986024&sr=1-1&keywords=Eat+to+live+Joel+Fuhrman’s
“Eat to Live” by Joel Fuhrman isn’t really so much a weight loss book as it is a book on plant nutrition in an easy to read, understandable format. He makes a very good case for a plant based diet. I’ve read it several times over the years. (Kale is one of his top rated foods.) He has also written books on fasting that I haven’t read.

Am I the only person here who actually chooses to eat kale for the flavour? Have done for years. Fry or steam, then sprinkle with a few bits of preserved lemon and toasted nuts (flaked almonds or walnuts good) on fast days, or add bacon if a non-fast day. Works for any cabbage or other brassica.

sw600, we eat kale on a regular basis and have for years, actually since Dr. Fuhrman’s book prominently mentioned it. I add it raw and chopped to slaw type salads, to green salads, and lightly sautéed, to many cooked dishes. One of the family favorites is adding it raw to warm cooked quinoa or other whole grains and stirring it in. Dressings vary, with Meyer’s lemon juice, olive oil, garlic, salt & pepper being a favorite. We also like a dressing of rice vinegar, sesame oil, a little soy sauce, ginger and garlic. I remove the tough spines of the larger leaves and cut the kale into ribbons. Any type of salad dressing works, and with the quinoa and/or whole grains, it can be a light meal. We also add some to green smoothies.

I love kale, especially cavolo nero. It’s easy to grow too, even here in Scotland 🙂

Veg based meal tonight – leek and potato soup. I have just dug up the leek. When I went to the bucket I use to wash them there was one and a half inches of ice on the top! Fortunately leek is one of those veg that don’t mind a bit of frost.

Caterpillars are a pain, also pigeons. If you want to avoid chemicals I am afraid the only answer is to put a net over the crop. Nothing fancy, I drape mine over some bricks. As long as the net is not touching the plant – the offenders can lay their eggs through the net! Which leaves only the problem of the slugs. Fortunately there is a hedgehog who visits me occasionally.

That is about 5 times the Longevity diet recommendation. And I am certainly older.

There certainly is a lot of information that can be contradictory. And our individual circumstances, genetics, epigenetics and goals can influence what’s best for each of us.

Personally, retaining and perhaps growing a little muscle is high on my list. I want to stay strong and mobile as long as possible. So on the days I lift weights I eat ~150 grams of protein from pastured eggs, seafood and whey. I also eat plenty of veggies I know are not inflammatory for me. However during my fasting periods I don’t eat any protein.

Hi:

Muscle building and longevity are two different things. If you google ‘lifespan of bodybuilders’ you will find a spirited discussion of whether or not bodybuilders have shorter lifespans. It seems generally accepted that pro bodybuilders do die more quickly. But so do pro football players and Sumo wrestlers. In a Google Scholar search, I found no real research results on the subject (but admittedly did not go through all of the thousands of returns).

The fact is that bodybuilders like and want IGF1 because it is a growth hormone that encourages muscle growth. Sort of like an internally produced steroid. As protein raises IGF1 levels, protein is highly prized by bodybuilders wanting to grow their muscle mass. With recent research linking IGF1 to cancer and other diseases, and showing that lower dietary protein levels both lower IGF1 levels and lengthen lifespans, the bodybuilding community is faced with having its most cherished mantra – eat a lot of protein to build muscle – challenged by counter veiling research that says eat a lot of protein and die younger (or don’t live as long as you could without the high protein intake). Of course, some don’t seem to care (the ‘die young, but die ripped group).

But it also appears bodybuilders simply do not need as much protein as they think they do to build muscle. It appears they can get the same results with half (or less than half) of the volume of protein they are used to eating – and still enjoy a longer life. Probably not an easy sell in a community steeped in the ‘knowledge’ that you must eat lots of protein to have lots of muscle.

Longo’s research confirms that people over 65 (I think, might be 70) need more protein to help them maintain muscle mass, and his Longevity Diet takes that into account by adding more protein sources for the over 65 group. However, even with the added protein sources overall protein intake levels on the Longevity Diet do not come close to those levels advocated by bodybuilders. As an aside, other research also confirms that if you are over 65 you should shoot for high cholesterol levels – showing the more cholesterol you have, the longer you live (and vice versa).

As I am not a body builder, and have no interest in the activity, I have no skin in the game. New information often makes waves in old, quiet pools. It will be interesting to see how it all works out.

Penguin, I am with you and I, too, was a long distance runner! How powerful that felt! I am just a little bit younger than you are and totally agree with what you said about about not needing vast amounts of protein to be athletic. I also don’t buy into having to snack all day! I exercise 5 days a week, including with weights, with my personal trainer without loading myself up with protein and I do just fine! I feel wonderful! I don’t like extremes either! That’s great that you can still kayak! You must be doing something right! Stay strong and good luck!

Diverdog! I am right there with you. I am interested in all those things, too, especially a diet against inflammation. I am a woman, so you can imagine that I am not trying to bulk up but I am very interested in muscle tone and stamina!

Californiadreamer, you are correct. Longo only addresses average people not bodybuilders or athletes. The only allowance he makes is for us old folks to have additional protein. The NY Times article is about a macro study of normal people that train with weights. Not body builders. The outcome was that people that ate around 1.6 gram/Lb of body weight gained 25% more muscle than those that ate less. Those that ate more than 1.6 grams did not gain additional muscle. It was not a longevity study.

This chat about martial arts brings back memories. Some better that others. My classical guitar playing is slightly limited by the finger I broke when I misjudged a tomanagi, pulled a 220 pound opponent down on top of me and he landed on the extended little finger of my left hand. You could hear the snap in the next county. I rode my motor bike down to the hospital and came out with my hand and wrist rigidly plastered, which made using the clutch lever on the way home an interesting exercise. Sporting injuries are unpredictable. I played rugby for thirty-eight years without injury, got hurt in one season of field hockey and did myself most damage playing volleyball.

Day 9, Cornwall UK, NFD

I had a disappearing post so sorry if this is a repeat!

Weekly weigh-in and 0.8kg down. This is such a good day for me as I am down to 85.4kg and a BMI of 29.9. That takes me out of the ‘obese’ range – a label which I hate – and which I have now shaken off with 7.5 months of effort and a wait of 15 years! I am half way through my marathon with 21kg down and 21kg to go.

For those of you out there with a lot to lose – its working for me – it will most likely work for you. It has worked for lots of people. Just hope I can get going!

I will celebrate with my OH by going for a Valentine’s Day lunch at the Cornish Vegan. My husband got below BMI 30 about a month before me, so he is celebrating too. We have finally converted to a plant-based Med diet, so it will be a pleasure to eat out and be able to choose anything from the menu. Yeh for Non Fast Days!

Living 25 miles from the nearest good bookshop I ordered mine from Amazon – Monday with luck. You don’t need a compelling reason for a longer fast. I have done up to three days fluid only and feel really great at the end.

CalifDreamer. Even in my much reduced state, at nearly six and a half feet and over 200 pounds,I am not a mouse and do not expect to react like one. The interesting thing is that I am increasingly enjoying the kind of food that Longo recommends. I have just eaten a large bowl of varied salad stuffs and a few prawns. My 5:2 life rapidly evolved into two, sometimes three day water fasts. So longevity and 5:2 are not that much different for me. I know that 5:2 works, but I am prepared to give Longo a go. For me it won’t be a great change.

If you feel like starting a Longevity thread I’ll come with you.

Correction on the macro review of studies on muscle growth and protein. The correct sweet spot for maximum muscle growth while weight training was 1.6 g/kg not 1.6g/ lb of body weight!

That makes it 2-3 times the Longevity protein and not a lot.