Tuck them in Penguin.

Cinque, your post wasn’t there when I wrote that. Great article. I’ve always believed that a slower rate of weight loss made more sense. Dr. M. disagrees. His argument is that people lose interest and give up if they don’t see a fast result. The information you posted about caring for our skin seems to indicate that skin cells need time to adjust to weight loss.

Good morning everyone,

Congratulations penguin on your progress – 1 lb to go is great. Re BMI – despite the limitations with it, I personally find it useful. I’m 5’6″, middle 60’s in age, classed as sedentary, and BMI works quite well at describing my physical state, and is 22.4 now. It was 21.9 when I reached my goal of 62kgs. My Dr is happy eitgee way as both are in the middle of the healthy range.

If we take 19-25 as a healthy. BMI, and you’re not a huge and active rugby player then at 26 you’re just a little outside that, and 7 extra lbs ( about 3kgs) should see you in the healthy weight range. For me I always had an end goal but used mini-goals along the way, and that strategy helped me a lot. Personal circumstances can vary so much with how we approach these things.

The challenge of extra skin after weight loss is there for some people particularly if they’ve been morbidly ovese. Two parts to that challenge, the first being the excess skin and the visual look in and out of clothes – some have had surgery, but that depends on the quantity of excess skin being large, age, health and dollars, but not something to go into lightly.

The second part is that loose skin has weight and if there is a large amount it can appreciably distort what might be “healthy weight” eg getting down to a pre-morbidly obese weight might actually put someone underweight if the weight of the skin is excluded. So “weight” or BMI isn’t the only factor in judging the end point of final goal weight.

For you penguin, as for all of us, it depends what you’re happy, comfortable, healthy with as an end goal.

As for getting comfortable with losing to the point of going too far -re the dietitian’s advice, for me, the danger of that came with a change in my thinking began when I trialled.doing back2back fasts. Fasting became too easy, even though it was becoming obvious b2b fasts was unhealthy physically for me. B2b fasts were being heavily promoted on a couple of forum threads at the time, and I stopped reading them. I believe Dr Miseley got it right in the original version of 5:2 in the 2 days being non-consecutive.

Congratulations Cinque on your 2 yr anniversary💐 Well done!

Had a meal out recently where it turned out everyone at the table was doing 5:2. All getting healthier and combatting the over supply of food and the unhealthiness of a lot of manufactured food.

MerryMe, we’re the same BMI of 22.4. I’m about half an inch shorter (I shrunk half an inch somewhere along the way) and am a couple years older. I need to get more exercise. I spend too many hours working at my desk and sitting with my tablet.

LJoyce, you’ve accomplished a lot with weight loss over the years. It’s too bad 5:2 wasn’t around when you went the meal replacement route. It must have been difficult losing that way, even though it was fast. The 5:2 WOL seems more sustainable than any other diet I’ve been on over the years. Occasionally the FD are tough, but usually they’re not. I’ve done a few B2B when I’ve had a lot of other things going on during the week, but I much prefer single fast days, preferably with a couple days in between. I like seeing the loss the following morning.

Cinque, that was a good article you posted on the excess skin. Staying hydrated and keeping the skin hydrated are good suggestions, I think.

Hot weather here and getting hotter in the next days. A couple fires nearby already. We aren’t in danger from either of them but we do have some huge Oak trees in the garden and there are lots of big trees in the neighborhood. I’m always on edge this time of year. Fires can happen so fast. We rarely get rain in the summer and the humidity is low.

Cali, I hope the wildfires stay well clear of your property. Very different weather here – cold and thunderstorms today.
When I lost the 52 kg by 2015 I was on a time deadline. I need to have knee replacement surgery and had to have a BMI of 35 or less for my chosen hospital to admit me as a patient – lots of private hospitals here seem to set these rules to manage risk. I needed to lose the weight quickly so I didn’t have many choices. 5:2 would have been easier, but probably not fast enough to get light enough before my surgery date. However, meal replacements don’t teach you how to maintain and 5:2 does that, so I plan to stick with it long term.

hi moumallick6, welcome.

We all seem to have a personal way that we approach our fasting days, and I’d encourage you to do the same. I experimented with various options in the first few weeks until I worked out what suits me. Some of the things to figure out are:
– When to eat on a fast day. My advice is to only eat when your appetite is strongest. For example I try not to eat on a fast day until afternoon, because I don’t feel hungry at breakfast time – this wouldn’t suit everyone but it works for my appetite.
– What to eat. This is pretty broad as everyone has their own choices that work for them. Most people choose to focus mainly on protein and vegetables on fast days. I have also noticed that lots of people have settled on a small number of fast day recipies that they use most of the time. I have 3 that I alternate between as they take almost no time and I find that’s important on a fast day.

The other part of 5:2 working is getting the non-fast days right. Even with 2 fast days, if you eat more calories than you need on the other 5 days you probably won’t lose weight because they will cancel each other out. This was a particular issue for me as my TDEE is low so I find it challenging to stay under that level on my non-fast days. If you haven’t already done so, go to the “resources” page and work out your TDEE. Be aware that every kilo you lose will reduce your TDEE, so you may want to consider working out the TDEE for your goal weight and trying to stick to it on your non-fast days. The benefit of this is that you get plenty of practice eating to the calorie level that will be required to maintain that goal weight. Some people choose to monitor calories on non-fast days ans others don’t. I did initially until I had a clear idea of what my foods and serves needed to look like so I stick within my TDEE, so I no longer need to monitor calories.

The final thing that helps is support. I’ve found the help through this forum really helps me sort through the issues that effect my weight and also provides that support needed in the low times.

Have a good read though the various pages on this website and look at the FAQ – it will answer a lot of questions that most newbies have.

And finally – Good luck.

Cali – the meal replacement program I did was initially 800 calories per day, which was increased to 1000 after 3 months. These are usually called VLCD or VLED programs (very low calorie/energy diets). Along with the calories in the meal replacement products they also contain 1/3 of the daily recommended micro-nutrient requirements. On 800 calories I was allowed 3 meal replacement products (eg shakes) and 2-4 cups of low calorie low carb vegetables – that’s it. I got quite inventive making evening meals with my veggies. When I moved to 1000 calories it was 2 meal replacement products + 1 low cal meal (max 400 calories) + 1 small serve dairy + 1 small piece fruit. The normal program was to stay on 800cal for 3 months, then take a 4 week break on 1000 before moving back to 800 for another 3 months – you keep repeating until your BMI is 30 – then it’s 1000 cal or higher once you are no longer obese. I should have done longer on 800 calories but after taking the 4 week break on 1000 calories I chose not to return to 800 and stuck with the 1000 calories until I got to my goal – having a normal meal each day was something I just couldn’t face giving up again. Sticking with 1000cal slowed down my weight loss to 0.7kg per week but was more endurable.

This is a really harsh and unnatural way to lose weight but I’m not sure I would have had the endurance to lose such a large amount of weight more slowly. Even with this method it took nearly 2 years. I should also point out that these programs are specifically designed for people who are obese and definitely are not recommended for those who are in the “overweight” BMI range. When I was doing the program most of those who were also on it at the same time were morbidly obese and had 40-120kg (88-264 pounds) to lose. Most people took years not months – those that stick with it, and most didn’t. For most of us, it was a last attempt to get our weight down before giving serious consideration to bariatric surgery. My GP was encouraging me to consider bariatric surgery, but supported and monitored me through this attempt to get the weight off without the bariatric surgery. I also wasn’t the only one who needed a lower BMI in order to have planned surgery – one lady had 125kg to lose before the hospital would admit her for a hysterectomy – in the end they relented after she’d lost 75kg and did the surgery.

The really big drawback of programs like this is that they substitute food for products so you get little experience of eating normal meals and maintaining that lower weight. This really frightened me after I got to my goal – this was actually when I started seeing a dietitian as I knew I needed help with weight maintenance. My experience and skills at maintaining a healthy weight were sadly lacking and it’s been quite a learning process.

You are definitely right about my knees doing better without the weight. My rehab went really well and I have a great range of movement in the new knee. I spend several years hobbling around with a walking stick, but I’m very mobile now. The artificial joint should last a lot longer too without all that excess weight.

Welcome mouma! Where are you located if you don’t mind revealing? Yep, I’m the nosey one here.

To add to LJ’s tips, mine include reading Dr. M’s ‘Eat Fast Live Longer’ before you do anything. It’s a great reference for all of us and I’ve read mine several times just to remind myself why I’m still doing this three years on. You can read it in a couple of days and it’ll be the best investment you’ve ever made.

Invest in a set of good bathroom scales and some good kitchen scales. Tools of the trade (unless you’re someone who doesn’t like weighing yourself). Weigh and measure everything. Arms, waist, thighs, calves, the lot. Work out your TDEE (and I agree with LJ, that we do need to learn to eat within the TDEE of the goal weight; so many of us have lost vast amounts of weight only to gain it all back when we returned to our old way of eating. D’oh!).

My primary advice is to master the two fast days first. Eat what you like on the other days because we probably all over-compensated on the NFDs while we were learning this new WOL. This goes away naturally as 5:2 gradually shapes our appetite, food choices and our portion sizes. As Intesha and others said above, this is a WOL, not a diet.

We’re here to help so make use of the forum and post often. Ask us anything! Don’t take us too seriously though, although we’re serious about 5;2, we talk a lot of nonsense too. Well, OK, I do. 😆 Try not to get caught up in the race to the finish line. As Merry recently posted, it’s not a competition to see who can fast the longest or lose the most weight the fastest. I believe in ‘naked 5:2’. This is why I strongly suggest reading ‘the book’ before you listen to posters’ individual recommendations.

Since LJ kindly helped me work out my NFD calorie intake, I have performed a lot better in keeping to my TDEE. I absolutely hated counting calories and never cared about my NFD calories but it must be done on FDs at least initially. Later, you will come to know what 500 cals looks like and when to consume them.

WRT knowing when to stop Penguin, I initially set myself a goal of 10kgs. I met it so easily with this WOL that I decided on another 10kgs. I never had a final weight in mind. Fortunately, I reached a plateau at 59kgs and it lasted such a long time that I decided to declare it ‘goal weight’. I was 58 years old then and I’d lost about 24kg at that point. My weight ultimately settled back up at 60kg and I have continued with either 5:2 or 6:1 for the past two years maintaining between 60-61kg but usually 60.1kg which I weighed this morning. I think my body knows that 59kg is not sustainable. It’s the first time since my twenties that I’ve had a stable weight.

Good point about the weight of excess skin Merry! So I really only weigh about 55kgs…..

Cinque I, too, thought you were here before Intesha. I used to get you mixed up with Coastcat because you both arrived at the same time.

Hope your FDs have all gone swimmingly.

Penguin – Finding that goal weight can be tricky. We aspire to something than might be unrealistic. My GP encouraged me to aim for something I believed I could maintain. I think he thought that was better than a lower goal that I’d struggle with. Given my weight history, this was good advice. Luckily for me a BMI of 30 seems to be the tipping point for weight related health issues. So in my case it’s a generous target, some other unfortunately don’t have this leeway and need a lower BMI to resolve their health issues.

Your meal last night was a great reminder that your body and tastes have changed.

Cinque, I have just had a look at the Huffington link – thanks for that. Interesting, but it sounds as though I’m too late.

Thinatlast, I picked up a new car yesterday. The MG had to go because I have four grandchildren, they have dogs and I need a large flat roof for the canoe or kayak. This new thing greets me by name when I switch on, the satnav says “Please” when giving directions and when I switch off it reminds me to take my iphone. That could get to be irritating and I am not sure about having a roof over me. Otherwise I like it. I’m not really worried about clothes, but I do now own a slim line polo shirt which I can get into. Extra large slimline is a concept that somehow doesn’t sound right.

What a fabulous way to celebrate your loss Penguin. Enjoy!

Gosh Merry, it’s a wonder that LJ didn’t come up with those stats! But wasn’t CalifD the 12,000th poster?

Thin – just letting the rest of you practice your arithmetic.

Ha, ha

For those of you who haven’t worked it out yet Ljoyce is our mathematical/statistical/data wizard. And I do mean wizard!

Calif Dreamer, “what color is it” is not a guy’s question. It is a very light silver grey estate car. It is really bigger than I wanted or needed, but I took my wife with me when we went shopping. It is a 2 litre diesel, bought a couple of days before our government announced that it will ban new diesel or petrol cars from 2040. Still, by then I probably won’t be driving. I contemplated electric but I spend too much time in parts of the country where there isn’t even a mobile phone signal and charging points are a dream. The nearest to my home is 25 miles away.

I am deep into Tim Spector’s “The Diet Myth” , having seen one of his lectures via a link on one of our sites. Similar theme to “10% Human” but with links to the Brit Biome study which runs in conjunction with the US one. I am going to sign up for the study – it will be good to know exactly what is inside me. I thought about “10% Human”, but the stats seem to be US based whilst Tim Spector refers to them, but gives a Brit angle. Like you I am finding it fascinating

Enjoy your lovely post fast day Cinque et al. Is it a Saturday fast for you this week?

CalifD, I read ‘10% Human’ last year. Fascinating.

Merry, I forgot to comment about the dinner where it was discovered that everyone practices 5:2. I don’t know why everyone isn’t doing it! When CharliesMum and I first starting meeting for coffee, we used to try and guess the weight of passers-by and we wanted to shout ‘5:2!’ to some of them.

Yes Penguin, I’d like to know too – was the convertible MG red? We tend to keep our cars for a long time so no fancy electronics here but I do have John Cleese saying, “You have reached your destination, you can get out now but I’m not going to carry your bags” on the GPS. Big Bill and Joffy, how are you both?

LJoyce, I haven’t reached the part about bottle feeding and birth method yet. I’m just finishing the part about autism and how gut bacteria might be a cause, at least in some cases. I don’t really know anyone very well who has a child with autism but I’ve always found it interesting because the origins and the huge recent increases seem so confusing. I’ve read a lot of books on the subject. I’ve been doing some Googling of more recent research based on what I read in the book. There have been more studies done and they make the microbe connection seem likely in some cases. It’s amazing that the gut can have such a direct effect on the brain. It makes the kefir and sauerkraut seem a lot more important. I eat a lot of legumes too. They’re so filling and I just feel better when they’re a part of my diet. Lots of fiber in them.

My fast went well today. I feel a little hungry now and the food for the day is eaten, but I’ll live. 🙂 Mostly, I just love all the extra room in the jeans I’m wearing. They were very tight 11 weeks ago!

Cinque, the fires in France look terrible! It looks like they’re mostly under control now.

Have a good day, everyone.

Haha LJ. Good exercise!

CalifD & LJ: I found the info about the natural birth and breast feeding as a vital means of passing on crucial bacteria very interesting. If I remember correctly, it only takes four generations to completely wipe out essential gut bacteria which could have devastating effects for our future especially if the current trend of unnecessary Caesarian births continues.

I enjoyed chatting to my young niece about this as she’s studying midwifery in the UK. She told me that they are now beginning to swab babies with mothers’ vaginal bacteria when they are born via Caesarian or in a pool but it’s not common practice because women aren’t informed. She also told me that they are trying to eliminate the ‘breast is best’ slogan which conveys a message that formula is a fine standard but breast milk would be better. She said they are only now learning just how bad formula can be.

When I worked in hospitals in California, I had a wide circle of physician friends. It was clear that C-sections were being scheduled to accommodate doctors’ holiday schedules. This was 30 years ago. My neighbours here tell me that patients also demand C-sections at alarming rates. to accommodate their own work schedules, etc. This doesn’t mean we should judge anyone who couldn’t/didn’t breast feed or deliver naturally for whatever reason but it’s just facts. Interesting ones too.

Anyway, I’m glad the book is getting the airing it deserves. And the autism issue is also very interesting CalifD. Off for coffee with my neighbours.

The new one is silver grey because I got a good deal on that particular car. The MG was also grey, quite by chance, when buying an old car you go for condition rather than colour. It was small, I am 6’4″ so it fit me like a glove and my head stuck out over the top of the screen. The new one is large, will comfortably take four people my size and has lots of space for luggage or camping kit. If we have to go into town we will take my wife’s Golf to the multi storey car park! I’ll have to get used to getting it into confined spaces – I tend to keep them for a long time.

We are a small country but we are really two countries. Electric cars make sense for commuting into the towns where the infrastructure is starting to exist, but large areas of Scotland, Wales and rural England will never get it. I’m only 140 miles from London but we haven’t yet got reliable mobile phone coverage or a decent internet connection. When the battery technology is better and I can have a load carrying vehicle with a range of 500 miles that I can re-charge at home, I will buy one.

I haven’t finished “The Diet Myth”, but to summarise what I have learned. Pre and probiotics and fermented foods can help, specially in the young, the old and some who are sick because of a poor biome, although the science to explain why is a little thin. Commercially available items such as joghurts claiming to contain microbes are seldom much good. There is a lot of info on which microbes do what. You need as diverse as possible a gut biome which you achieve by eating the most diverse, fibre rich diet you can. Fat and dairy are not the enemy. Processed foods and ready meals are. Some interesting info on a very large long term Spanish trial which compared two versions of the Mediterranean diet with a low fat diet. Those on the highest fat diet (lots of olive oil) were the healthiest and lost a little weight. I am probably doing the book an injustice, I’m only half way through it, but I ‘m already drinking kefir and modifying my diet – I have re-introduced red wine and live cheese.

thinatlast. Well you have to deal with the most urgent issues first.

The further I get into that book the more interesting it gets. I like his approach to research – he isn’t keen on observational studies or research that focusses too closely on single issues. He does have the advantage of an enormous group of identical twins on which to do research. However, that may just be the way my mind works – there is a bit of repetition and his lecture, which is available on youtube, and for which there is a link either back on this site or on the science article site, covers much of the terrain.

I haven’t started making my own kefir yet, it is easily and cheaply available locally and I am new to the idea ,but I am checking the internet for the most promising source of grains in UK. I like the bought stuff but I am increasingly distrustful of anything I don’t make from scratch myself. Not that my own stuff always works – today’s bread is being slow to rise.

I was hoping that 10% Human would eventually get into the things we, as mature adults, can do to improve our gut biome population. It sounds like maybe it doesn’t get into much of that? Penguin, you’ll have to let us know if The Diet Myth gets into more of that.

From what I’ve read, making your own kefir, yogurt, sauerkraut, sourdough, etc is much better than buying it at the store unless the store stuff is made locally and not pasteurized. It stands to reason, because sauerkraut will keep fermenting and producing gas in the container until you put it in the frig. Even then, it ferments very slowly. It would cause a can of sauerkraut to explode on the shelf if they didn’t heat it to a high enough temperature to kill off the fermentation bacterias. Kefir would go bad once the bacteria has eaten all the lactose from the milk. Yogurt would do the same. They can be refrigerated for a while, but not long term. The reason these foods are so healthy is because of all the live cultures in them and most are killed off in processing plants.

I wish I lived closer to all of you because I have lots of kefir grains. Mailing them through customs would probably be a disaster. But once you have even a teaspoon of them you never have to buy them again, as long as you keep making it. And you can keep it in the frig for weeks if you don’t want to make it every day, once you have a crop of good healthy grains. They are quite sturdy!

CalifDreamer. Our posts crossed. I can just imagine out Customs people looking in the reference books for kefir. I think I have found a likely source – they only mail Mon-Fri so it doesn’t hang around in the mail over the weekend. Most of The Diet Myth book is about how we do it wrong, but it is good on how to encourage the microbes – artichokes, Jerusalem artichokes/sunflower roots, chicory/endive, dandelion leaves, garlic, onions, leeks, asparagus, broccolli, seeds, nuts, extra virgin olive oil, whole grain bread, preferably rye. Nothing I couldn’t eat, although not all at the same time..

CalifD & Penguin, there was some discussion on using our own kefir grains vs. buying commercial products about four pages back, it might have been just before Penguin joined us. Although the store-bought products boast billions of bacteria, our gut contains 100 trillion. As you say CalifD, the pasteurisation process destroys bacteria. When I get back from hols, I’ll research ways to slow mine down because I can’t keep up with the grains themselves multiplying so fast. I think this involves dividing the grains and freezing some for use as a back-up while feeding the active grains more milk. I’d prefer to give some grains away so, if there are any Perth lurkers who’d like some, don’t be shy.

I didn’t get the impression that, ‘10% Human’ was intended for mass appeal which Cinque describes as falling in the contradictory ‘short message, quick result, lifetime change’ area. Even with a medical background, I found parts of it quite hard going.

I’ve just looked for the youtube video on, ‘The Diet Myth’ that Penguin mentioned and found an article entitled, “The Diet Myth: Your Gut Bacteria Play A Bigger Role In Weight Loss Than You Think”. The opening para is alarming: “More than half of the Australian population is overweight or obese. Yet, despite all the steps we’re taking to battle the bulge, we are still fat.”

Cinque are you fasting today? I’m looking forward to mine tomorrow, I rather over-did it yesterday.

Good morning all – It’s rather nice to wake up and have an conversation to read, that happened while those of us down under were asleep – well trying to sleep anyway. It was a bad night for me I managed 3 hours from 2-5am.

Cali – From the reading I’ve done online (if it’s reliable) you can make keffir from milk that has been pasturised but not milk that’s been ultra high treated (UHT long life milk). I think the problem comes if the keffir is pasturised after being made. We have no option in Australia anyway as it’s impossible to buy raw milk legally, so even making kefir at home has to e done with pasterised milk – we can still get milk that hasn’t been homogenised from a small number of smaller (usually organic) dairies.
If you are looking for a checklist of things to do as an adult to restore your gut bacteria, 10% Human doesn’t do it. But from reading the book I was able to gain enough information to plot my own path. Foecal transplant isn’t an option and even testing to determine what my gut bacteria are isn’t readily available, but knowing my own history I can work out where my issues are likely to be. I also took heart from her descriptions of how people’s gut flora change as their diet changes – the gut flora that flourish has a relationship to the food provided. So I decided to focus on a healthy diet containing a broad range of foods, that includes lots of pre-biotic foods and to supplement this initially with inulin (a powdered pre-biotic). To give my gut a helping hand with the repopulation process I’m having keffir daily (even on FDs). The only factor that will adversely effect this is antibiotics, which I can’t avoid as I regularly get lung infections that need to treated. My hope is that if my gut flora improve, I may get infections less often – not sure if this is a realistic hope.

Penguin – If Tim Spector doesn’t like research that focuses on single issues then I’m probably on the same wavelength. I think single issue research feeds our need for simple solutions and it fails to recognise that our bodies are complex and there are more differences between people than researchers can possibly account for. The twin studies might be the only option, and even that doesn’t mean there are no differences that could impact results. I think most of what happens in and to our bodies is the outcome of multiple factors and their interaction it’s rarely one thing in isolation. Our bodies are open complex systems – it’s the most difficult situation to definitively prove cause and effect.

You are right about customs getting worried about microbes passing through their borders. 30 years ago I used to share a house with a scientist who worked for CSIRO. She was involved in the development of microbes that are used to inoculate acacia tree roots enabling them to survive in more arid environments. She made a trip to Africa to transport a box of these microbes, for a project they were involved with there, and do the inoculation process. I remember the grilling at the airport when she told them what was in the box. Even with all of the official government paperwork they looked dubious – although they did let her through in the end.

I have a dietitian appointment later this morning – I still check in about every 3 months. It’s been useful support for trying to maintain my weight. I’m still trying to decide whether to walk to it – it’s still fine here, but it’s blowing a gale and it’s a 45min round trip on foot.

LJoyce, I was talking about trying to make kefir from store bought kefir. I don’t think that would work because so much bacteria has been killed off. Our plain milk here has to be pasteurized too. It’s illegal to sell raw milk. (Although it can be found. There are lots of raw milk fans around here.) I always use pasteurized milk to make my kefir. I’ve even used the ultra pasteurized once without realizing and reading the carton carefully. It worked, but I typically have way more grains than I need in a batch, so maybe with a smaller bunch of grains would have failed to ferment.

10% Human has me going off in different directions, researching the things I’m reading on the internet to see if in the couple years since it was written there have been any new developments. She talks about patents on some of the discoveries. I hope patents don’t stifle the information or the possibility of cures for something like autism. I had no idea it was so prevalent.

Wow two extra posts snuck in!

I only found out about Cinque Terre after I started posting here. Isn’t it beautiful though! But yes I am Italian pronunciation, Chinkwei is how I think of it. I was trying to teach myself Italian (embarrassed at my monoliguism and loving Inspector Montalbano). Didn’t get far, but learnt my numbers to ten at least! I love the sound of ‘cinque’. I am the fifth out of seven children and one of five girls and for some reason that was on my mind when I joined this site. An hour later and I would have called myself something different! But lucky I chose something fairly short and distinctive!

I just had a thought about something else in 10% Human. She said that when mice with different biomes were housed together the one with the unhealthy biome acquired some of the good bacteria from the healthy mouse. So I guess that’s a last resort to acquiring a healthy a healthy biome – go and live with someone who has one. I wonder how that would look on dating site check list “must have healthy gut bugs”. Although now that I come to think of it, the mice might have swapped bugs by eating poo – that’s definitely a nooooooooo.