Increased glucose sensitivity on 5:2?

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Increased glucose sensitivity on 5:2?

This topic contains 23 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  lortay 6 years, 7 months ago.

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  • Hi,

    I read on an LCHF forum that someone on strict LCHF may get “glucose spikes” if suddenly consuming great amounts of carbohydrates, as the body is not used to dealing with such amounts of carbohydrates after a while on this diet. The levels (measured by a blood test) would then quickly drop and become normal again (= typically low for someone on LCHF). I am not practising LCHF; this is just where I read about it.

    Is there something similar experienced for 5:2? I would guess that the sensitivity is less marked as it is not an on-going reduction of carbohydrates but only twice per week and depending on how you get your calories in general (from carbohydrates, fat or protein).

    I had a routine blood test at work this summer and was a bit surprised that I had a glucose level = 4.7. This is still a normal value but quite a bit higher than the typical 3.8-4.1 that I have “always” had.

    Then I realised that I had had quite an unhealthy meal on the previous evening with loads (I really mean loads, for instance a big bowl of popcorn) of carbohydrates. I also had been unable to exercise as much as I normally do due to a cold so I guess that I did not burn off the carbohydrates the way I normally would. I have always had a high carbohydrate intake and still always kept the glucose levels above.

    So, to make a long story short, is it possible that the body reacts a bit more to “bursts” of carbohydrates (especially when these are of the more refined sort) when your body has got used to the 5:2 diet, especially after a fasting day? Would measuring the long-term glucose be a safer bet than the fasting glucose you normally check to establish your insuline sensitivity?

    I will check the values now again in October and I am not worried in any way about this result I had; I was just surprised to see it!

    Thanks for any input.

    Tobias Karlsson

    hmmm

    mayb that is why my results were still high

    even though they r now lower
    since TFDL (thefastdaylifestyle πŸ˜€ )

    being a type2diab on LCHFM (lowcarbhighfatmediterranean πŸ˜€ )

    it is a good point

    i will fastday the normal 500 cals b4 a blood test

    the results might b very different

    however, i heard not 2 take vitamin d or calcium

    before for blood test or ur results will show high calcium levels

    they had 2 retake it 4 mine because they were concerned

    so researched it & found this very important article on the supplements affecting blood test

    thanks 4 the info
    i’m sure it will help

    good luck on ur future blood test

    Wow! Thanks as always wiltldnrUSA (feels a bit impersonal to name you this way :)). You are really extremely helpful and there is so much you can learn on this forum thanks to people like you.

    Actually, I had taken additional calcium – not that I wanted to… my GF had the idea that it would have a positive impact on some other medical issues I have and so suggested me to take additional calcium. I objected because I consider my calcium intake healthy already but gave in just to test it for a while. I ended up having too a high calcium value, from this having been perfectly in range, so I stopped immediately. If I get what you say right, I may have ended up “boosting” my calcium level unnecessarily. Anyway, I will have that blood test in October alongside a range of other physical tests so I hope that this was just an odd one-off. I was also thinking that I will, if I do not have a fasting day before that test, at least eat very considerately, drink enough water etc.

    Tobias Karlsson

    u may call me usa i should have done that id

    oh well i replied 2 someone on this forum what my long name meant

    but keeping it simple, sweet & short should b my motto πŸ˜€

    as i call (some of them) the white coat mafia the same thing happened 2 me

    w/ doctors dispensing their views unilaterally

    on iron

    & calcium

    sure enough 2 much of both

    still keep vitamin d due 2 (not the day b4 blood test πŸ™‚ )
    it is one of the vitamins that the body uses very efficiently
    not just letting it pass through

    and we r losing the d

    in milliseconds

    supplements r important if u r taking medication
    r u ?

    heres an article u might want 2 c

    Sorting out the science vs. hype is no small feat in the supplement world.

    James Bennett, RPh, FACA, CDE, director of clinical services at James Bennett Apothecary, encourages us to help our patients choose wisely. He provided a few of the following examples during his presentation.

    Nutrient deficiencies that may affect many of our diabetic patients include magnesium, vitamin B12 or vitamin D deficiency, and altered gut flora.

    Since many type 2 diabetes patients take metformin, clinicians need to check B12 levels, especially in vegans or the elderly. Often, oral or sublingual B12 works well for repletion.

    Chronic use of PPIs can alter gut flora and lead to bacterial overgrowth, as well as magnesium deficiency. Always check magnesium levels before supplementing.

    Chronic statin use may deplete coenzyme Q10 (co-Q10) levels.
    Diuretics can not only reduce potassium, but also thiamine and magnesium. Always test the patient for deficiencies to be sure.

    Most persons with diabetes are vitamin D-deficient, although this has received lots of attention in the media and clinicians are testing for it.

    Omega-3s should be obtained from foods, such as fatty fish, flaxseed and other nuts/seeds, so oral supplements are not always necessary, except when triglyceride levels are abnormally high.

    Gut microbiota is a huge emerging field. The health of the gut can often boost immune function, so take those probiotics daily, especially if you are taking antibiotics. Be well!

    * Linda E. Sartor, RD, MA, CDE, LDN, RYT, is a nutrition specialist at the Penn Rodebaugh Diabetes Center in Philadelphia.

    i can’t find the link on other meds & how they affect the body

    i still think a fasting of 500 cals b4 the next day blood test

    will be enlightening
    thanks

    again we make our own informed decisions πŸ˜€

    Tobias Karlsson

    usa here πŸ˜€

    found it

    Nutrients to take when under medication

    http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/fit-to-post-health/nutrients-under-medication-061242092.html

    happy fastdays

    Hi there USA πŸ™‚

    Thanks! No, fortunately I do not take any medication whatsoever. I am doing what I am doing to hopefully try to avoid taking any later on in life as well :).

    I am trying to find the right balance right now, checking the outcome of this (so far) one year long experiment that 5:2 has meant to me. I am a little concerned that I may solve one problem and cause another one (such as some kind of vitamin/mineral deficiency), but based on the blood test after 6 months and how I feel right now, I have no reason to worry (well, it would be the sleep then – I saw you struggle as well with this – hope you are doing better now)! So if the values are all within range, I hope that I will have a simple diet pattern that I can follow long-term (“for the rest of my life” would be too a big statement as things may change in different stages of life). I have realised since I joined this forum that diet is not about pushing all the relevant values as much as possible to the extreme end of the “right” side of the scale, but about keeping all of them within range with simple, consistent behaviours that are easy to maintain on a daily basis. So if my glucose level has not continued to rise since the last blood test but possibly remains on this slightly-higher-than-usual-but-still-perfectly-normal-and-healthy level while other indicators have shown the improvement I always wanted (like cholesterol), then I will just accept that slight increase and consider the outcome successful!

    Tobias Karlsson

    still due 2 fasting we r cutting our nutrients in the long run

    basic math

    i would suggest a good multivitamin depending on ur activity

    daily & the vitamin d
    not calcium πŸ˜€

    happy nutritional fastdays β™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺβ™ͺ

    I think there’s not really enough research to be sure that your changes are due to the 5:2 – who is to say that things might not have been much worse if you hadn’t done it? Also there must surely be some other reasons for higher glucose sensitivity than just being overweight.

    In your case just fasting may not be enough, you may need to look carefully at what you are eating. So increased veg/salads, increased berry fruits and reduced carbs and high fructose fruits. Most recent research is suggesting that we should really be cutting our carbs down to about 10% of calories. Now that is quite a difficult concept to get your head around to start with, but it is possible. Cutting carbs reduces calories, and you need to replace them with fat, or vegetable proteins. Remember that carbs are the other source of blood glucose, along with the actual grains of sugar.

    I would take a supplement, but also make sure that you are getting supplemental chromium and vanadium which are both involved in sugar metabolism. And make sure you are drinking lots of water and caffeine free drnks. Caffeine causes sugar to be released into the bloodstream, so is not good news for you.

    Ruthi

    i don’t drink coffee but never knew that

    do u get chromium and vanadium in a multi?

    & how much?

    i agree w/ the carbs

    that is why i’m a

    FLCHFCCM flexitarianlowcarbhighfatcarbcyclingmediterranean
    w/TFDL (thefastdaylifestyle πŸ˜€ )

    the best of all the top diets 4 a type2diab

    Tobias Karlsson

    oops forgot 2 answer ur question
    about the sleep

    1st it was NO sleep @ all

    then 4am

    now 2 to 3am

    & sometime carries over in2 nonfastdays

    the mind is super fast
    reading thinking planning

    mental acuity through the roof

    i wonder if the iq goes up πŸ˜€

    that would b a neat side effect or NOT

    mayb i should take 5 mg of melatonin
    doc said 2

    we will c

    & u how is ur sleep schedule progression?

    Caffeine seems to act to prepare for fight or flight – releasing blood sugar for muscle fuel, and releasing adrenaline. If you google there is loads of stuff about caffeine and glucose sensitivity, and separately about the adrenaline rush (hence we feel alert and buzzy) but I can’t find the original article I read that linked the two, it might have been in one of the Sherry Rogers books. Caffeine is bad news, putting unnecessary strain on our pancreas and adrenals (but I still think coffee and tea taste better with it!!!). Green tea contains some caffeine, but a lot less than other tea. The jury is out about how bad caffeine really is, given that we have very efficient systems for metabolising it that presumably evolved a long time ago. It may be that its fine for younger people, and not nearly as safe for us oldies who have lived long beyond our design life. Certainly I can feel the effects of a cup of coffee long after the scientists would have me believe I’ve metabolised it out of my system!

    No, I did not find Cr and V in multis (Cr occasionally in some). You can buy them combined or separately. $10-$15 on Amazon for 180 combined tabs, but I am not sure how many you need to take. Cr on its own did nothing for me after a six month trial, but then I read about V – not been taking that long enough to report back. I think for anyone with sugar metabolism problems its very well worth trying. Like so many other minerals, there’s less of it in our food since intensive farming.

    Ruthi

    ok sounds good

    will do the research

    thanks

    since u seem 2 be well authored on these things

    what do u think about what i’m going 2 do here c last post?

    http://thefastdiet.co.uk/forums/topic/reversing-type-2-diabetes-the-fastday-lifestyle/

    Ouch! I am widely read, but not that widely! Certainly no expert diabetes, but I do have quite strong views!

    Personally I am dubious about very low calorie diets – I can’t see how you can possibly get all the nutrients you need on so little food. I do not think that a multi pill is a substiture for a good diet, but I have no scientific evidence for that belief. But good food has all sorts of micronutrients, and I suspect the pills only contain the ones that can easily be manufactured.

    I suspect that you are suffering from that well known condition Dieter’s Impatience. You would be better, and feel better to work harder at reducing carbs/sugars in your diet. You took years to get this way, months to get sorted is not unreasonable.

    My ideal diet looks like this

    *No more than .8grams protein per kilo of bodyweight. Definitely no more than that in animal protein.
    *Oily fish 2-3 times weekly
    *As close to 10% of your calorie intake in carbs/sugars as you can get.
    *NO refined carbs or sugars (not even honey or fructose)
    *LOTS of green veg, additional carbs in the form of legumes or root veg other than potatoes
    *Berry fruits
    *Fat is fine, any natural fat, ideally cold pressed, butter is fine
    *Nuts and/or seeds as a daily part of your diet
    *NO caffeine, alcohol, sugar, refined foods, artificial sweeteners and as few additives generally as you can manage
    *IF, but on feed days eating your TDEE or up to 10% more, on fast days 25% or less
    *Average calorie intake no less than 70% of TDEE

    Its very definitely not just how much you eat so much as what you eat.

    Personally they won’t get near me with their flu vaccine, nasty side effects and it doesn’t work, other than to make Big Pharma richer!

    (I am an avid reader of What Doctors Don’t Tell You!!)

    Ruthi

    so so true

    did u click on link

    about the research this professor did & his success w/ humans

    now i agree w/ dieting 2 much

    i’m not impatient
    but 4
    11 days i think it is worth it 2 do

    being a type2diab if it can b reversed it is worth a shot

    w/ supplements etc

    “Its very definitely not how much you eat so much as what you eat.”

    the foods u mentioned r staples

    i just was trying 2 figure out the most nutritionist 900-800 cal days i think kale & collard green r the highest

    have never had a flu shot

    but wonder w/ the fasting & getting older

    as i call some in the medical community

    the white coat mafia i agree w/ the pill dispensing

    wish me success in reversing

    @ruthi
    “My ideal diet looks like this
    *No more than .8grams protein per kilo of bodyweight. Definitely no more than that in animal protein.
    *Oily fish 2-3 times weekly
    *As close to 10% of your calorie intake in carbs/sugars as you can get.
    *NO refined carbs or sugars (not even honey or fructose)
    *LOTS of green veg, additional carbs in the form of legumes or root veg other than potatoes
    *Berry fruits
    *Fat is fine, any natural fat, ideally cold pressed, butter is fine
    *Nuts and/or seeds as a daily part of your diet
    *NO caffeine, alcohol, sugar, refined foods, artificial sweeteners and as few additives generally as you can manage
    *IF, but on feed days eating your TDEE or up to 10% more, on fast days 25% or less
    *Average calorie intake no less than 70% of TDEE
    Its very definitely not just how much you eat so much as what you eat.
    Personally they won’t get near me with their flu vaccine, nasty side effects and it doesn’t work, other than to make Big Pharma richer!”

    This is a great summary of your strategies and I wonder how long you had this & your results so far?

    ➰

    Sadly, Rocky, its an ideal, but not yet reality.

    My big challenge is sugar, which I have not yet been able to crack down on (but 5:2 has really REALLY reduced the cravings, and so quantity] and I still eat too much sweet fruit as well. I am grain free apart from a bit of rice, eat a few potatoes or quinoa, have the occasional coffee or glass of wine.

    Its been a long slow road, travelled over nearly 40 years. I started by going wholegrain and upping my veg, then the caffeine went (and I was never a heavy drinker). Carb reduction was a rocky road started 10 years ago, but then I went gluten free 3 years ago, grain free this year. 5:2 (my second, better planned attempt) 4 months. 5:2 has helped immensely with the sugar cravings.

    But I DO feel much better, especially since I started IF. A stone lighter, slight reduction in thyroid meds, off the omeprazole, and coping with horrendous stress levels without drugs, that which would have sent me into severe depression in earlier years. I am more alert, better able to concentrate, less forgetful.

    USA, I did skim through it, and didn’t feel the evidence was solid enough to overcome my prejudices! I’ll sit down and read it more thoroughly and give you a more considered reply later (when I have done at least a little work!!!).

    Right, I have now read the thread, and the link to the Newcastle article etc.

    First the article, and the Food Hospital programme – its nothing new. We have known for some time the T2diabetes is linked to obesity, and its been clear that losing weight WILL reverse it in many cases. There doesn’t yet seem to be any research into why it works better for some than for others.

    Micronutrients. Scientists love to do research into the bleeding obvious! Clearly if we eat nutrient poor food, we’ll be nutrient poor. And most people who get fat do so not only because of eating too much, but too much of the wrong(ie not biologically appropriate) stuff, which is likely to be lacking in the nutrients we really need. So junk food is a)high in bad stuff and b)low in good stuff. Replacing micronutrients is never going to be as good as eating well. Science probably hasn’t worked out what all the micronutrients are, let alone found a way to copy them in an absorbable format.

    I cannot see where you found the 800 calories from, other than Optifast if that’s an 800 calorie system. The UK equivalent is called LighterLife and works on 600 calories but its equally frightful, IMHO. Optifast comes from the sci-fi idea that all you need is a pill to replace that messy stuff called food. Its rubbish, we are cave men and women, and we need cave man food!

    Why is Optifast so bad?

    *Because its deficient in nutrients, fibre and live enzymes.

    *Because, if its anything like the Lighterlife stuff its full of artifical sweeteners (which mess with your blood sugar and cause insulin resistance), salt and artificial flavours.

    *Because it teaches you nothing about how to eat well, the objective is to get you hooked, at least partially, on the stuff for life

    *Because its disgusting

    In fact its quite simply expensive malnutrition.

    Of course people lose weight, but they won’t, can’t gain real health.

    I can see NO benefit in adding IF to Optifast, you are already eating far too few calories. But you can and should gradually replace your Optifast (maybe one meal per week) with real, nutrient dense food. Meat, fish, eggs, milk, pulses if they agree with you, nuts and seeds. And lots of veg other than potato, berry fruits, other food in moderation. Once you are eating 3 good meals a day start the IF. I think coming off Optifast might put on a few pounds, but they will go again once you are on 5:2

    CoQ10 is poorly utilised by many older people because they seem to lack the enzymes to process it into an active form. Try Ubiquinol instead. You probably could do with added Omega3 fish oils and probiotics too. Plus a good multi.

    USA, I’m not good at getting popular, but I can’t let this go without comment. Diabetes does funny things to people’s minds and its well known that it tends to make them more stubborn. But even allowing for your T2D you come across here as being obsessive and very fixed on some fairly way out ideas. We are all a bit mad in our way, and my family thinks I am bonkers taking so much interest in ‘alternative’ health matters. But if you are the same in real life as on this board then I think your illness and diet together are messing with your obviously clever mind.

    If diabetes really is linked to micronutrient deficiency then there is no way that you’ll get better with Optifast. Please think about getting on a normal healthy diet – I doubt if it will cost any more than $100!!

    @ruthi
    “Diabetes does funny things to people’s minds and its well known that it tends to make them more stubborn. ”

    Stubbornness is rampant everywhere.

    This statement made me smile.

    ➰

    @ruthi
    “rocky road started 10 years ago,”

    I’ve also had a rocky road in my life. In many ways interesting, food wise:

    “I remember drinking 6 packs of soda, and later beer, on a given day, when in my 20β€²s. I had no physical problems from that, as I remember.
    I did have emotional issues.
    As a fun experiment, I thought that I would switch from drinking alcohol to just wine & beer consumption for one year. The next year, I switched to just drinking wine for a year. The next year, I switched to just drinking red wine for a year. That lasted 6 months, and havent drank wine since then. The next year, I switched to just drinking coffee for a year. The next year, I switched to just drinking iced coffee for a year. Then just tea.
    Now, I just enjoy my water with lemon. I also enjoy daily fruit juicing on feed days.”

    May you continue on your healthy path.

    ➰

    Ruthi

    i was never going 2 use optifast or any protein drink

    that is why i emailed him

    he said my way is nutritionally ok w/ 1 day fast

    in the email i sent him i explained my plan
    2 this scientist that since i fast
    i’m disciplined
    enough 2 do this w/ out the crutch of protein drinks

    i don’t want u 2 b popular

    i want ur blunt honesty

    i have done allot of research when type2diab
    r doing the stomach surgery

    they no longer have type2diab
    so this is a mirror of that surgery

    this is free except 4 the food i will eat

    the sad part of this type2 is as my family knows
    i was a whole grain healthy girl changing the way my family eats they did not listen

    but i got the type2diab no one else did
    in my family lineage no one has it

    i had a friend that is slim a model that eats very healthy &
    she has type2diab & now has insulin

    luckily i’m still on metformin only 2 a day lowest mg

    i was 8 lbs overweight when i was diagnosed

    i gained more weight being a type2diab

    it gets u depressed when gaining that u break down
    & have a dorito but u know deep down u should stay on course
    & eat healthily

    this disease is very scary

    luckily i’m an optimist & a happy kind of person
    never have been moody or neurotic

    luckily by being an avid reader like u
    i came across dr mosley

    this is the only thing that has helped me lose
    weight healthily fun & doable

    & hopefully by doing these 11 days
    reverse this disease

    if not i will always do the 6/1 & 4 now the 5/2

    thanks 4 taking the time & going out of ur way

    i really do appreciate ur honesty & thoughts

    I am SO glad you aren’t doing the Optifast thing!

    What I cannot understand is why you are so fixed on 800 cals and 11 days. It won’t kill you, but its just not necessary, or terribly good for you. You can cut out the same amount of calories spread over a month or so, suffer less and just make life easier. And to be honest, I wonder if anything will reverse your T2D in 11 days. If it were that easy everyone would be doing it. So yes, lose weight, yes get your diet sorted (sounds as if it already is more or less) but then expect that you will need to do more experimenting till you finally get there.

    I think that some of us are just more susceptible to some forms of disease than others, and maybe you drew the short straw in the family.

    In most cases blood sugar used to be successfully controlled with diet before the nice new (expensive and profitable) drugs came on the market. And they don’t seem to get a universally good press. Here are some articles on WDDTY (my first source for the other point of view) – you will need to join the site (for free) to read them.

    http://www.wddty.com/type-2-diabetes.html

    http://www.wddty.com/metformin-the-drug-of-choice.html

    Have you considered homoeopathy? Its not expensive because you only need a few consultations, and might help a lot to deal with the underlying causes of your T2D. From what I have read someone has the genetic disposition, then for some reason, usually getting fat, something switches it on. But there will be other switches than obesity.

    Whatever the cause you will need to lose weight and watch your diet, so its a good thing that you have lots of willpower!!! But hopefully once sorted you should be able to have the occasional treat!

    I know ALL about depression! I’ve had pretty well every anti-depressant on the market at one time or another, including Lithium (although not bipolar). No easy solutions, especially when life is shit!!! Walking the dogs daily, and marrying the right man second time around have helped a lot!

    ruthi

    if u do research on that surgery u will know about the cals

    i’m sorry 2 hear about ur depression

    it sounds like u r now on a healthy course & point of view

    we r going 2 have 2 agree 2 disagree
    respectfully

    wish me luck 4 those 11 days

    Does anyone know why the book says it’s not good for diabetics? Is it because of medications then causing too low blood sugars? Or is there some other reason?

    I’ve been doing this for 3 weeks. Man I feel good. It’s like my body gets a rest, and likes it! I’ve seen where people who live to be very old had as a common factor the fact that they didn’t eat too much! I’ve lost some weight, though not too much. I sleep better, wake up refreshed, and I feel healed in some way. I take insulin, and on the days of less food, I take less insulin…

    Seems to be working for me, but I don’t have the actual reason it’s said that Diabetics shouldn’t do this.

    Looking forward to hearing… Lorrraine

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