Quitting the 5:2 diet – IGF & Cholesterol higher as a result!!

This topic contains 19 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by sentient Being 8 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)

Ecka

11:27 pm
9 Oct 13
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I am concerned and now considering dropping the 5:2 diet.

I query its benefits, given that after 4 months of dieting my IGF has actually increased from 18.6 to 21.3 (normal range 7.2-25.5) – an increase of 14.5% while on the diet. The IGF is apparently the main indicator of cancer and health and this diet appears to be pushing me in the wrong direction.

As the diet was supposed to reduce my cholesterol my doctor agreed I should trial stopping my Lipitor statins in the hope that the diet would help. Well my cholesterol increased dramatically from 4.4 to 6.8 (54% increase). So I am back on the Lipitor as the diet did not help there.

I accept going back on the Lipitor, however I would have at least expected my IGF to be falling. If it is not falling, why stay on the diet. The IGF is the main indicator of health here. The science on longevity is unproven and will take many many years to prove. Why punish yourself on a diet when its benefits are questionable?

Does anyone know if the IGF fluctuates easily and what is the appropriate figure for a 50 year old man?

Does anyone have any ideas as to why my IGF is increasing given I am following the eating plans in the book?

Couscous

2:26 am
10 Oct 13
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Hi Ecka,am so sorry about your cholesterol and IGF. I have no medical knowledge that I can help you with save for the little I have learned from posters on the forum. All things being equal, the less cals we consume the less we weigh and other indicators should drop. Unfortunately we are all different, our metabolism, medication, age and lifestyle, among other things all have an impact. I have recently mentioned on another post the benefit of keeping a daily diary, warts and all for a few weeks to gain some knowledge of our dietary intake on all days. As a reference look at your non fast days eating habits. The two day fast is impacted, positively and negatively by what we eat on non fast days. Research some cholesterol free, low fat, lower cal recipes, there are plenty about to have on your non fast days. These days are as important as your fast days in some ways as we need to eat “normally” ie eat your daily recommended calorie intake. Other than this it may be that your metabolism is such that your IGF and cholesterol will be naturally difficult to lower to healthy levels. I hope not.
Good Luck.

Ecka

5:59 am
11 Oct 13
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Hi couscous

Thanks. After 1 month I lost 3kgs and have stabilised.

However my main issue is that I cannot comprehend why my IGF is going up.

In the forums most people are preoccupied with weight loss. Whereas very little is discussed about their IGF which is a very important indicator for longevity.

Any comments ??

TracyJ

10:05 am
11 Oct 13
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Ecka, I’m interested to know what type of 5:2 you are doing? It doesn’t seem to matter what people do with regards to weight loss, so I always recommend that people do whatever works for them but for IGF-1 reduction specifically, it is my understanding that you would need to be quite restrictive with your eating window in order to actually ‘genuinely’ fast long enough for the IGF-1 factor to kick in.
Also, I’ve noticed people mention a hike in their cholesterol on 5:2 before on other threads. Sometimes it seems to be related to the fact that they come off their meds, expecting 5:2 to replace the meds’ effects straight away. Maybe that’s where they’re going wrong? I also noticed someone mention a list of their fastday foods which were all protein based in order to help stave off hunger, which all seems healthy and good but when I looked at their list and thought about which foods have naturally high cholesterol (eggs, dairy, meat and even some seafoods) – they matched up pretty nicely. Maybe this might have some bearing on your situation too?

Ecka

12:36 pm
11 Oct 13
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I was not aware there is an eating window to impact on my IGF.

On fast days I generally have oats porridge with strawberries for breakfast, an apple for lunch, miso soup in afternoon and fish and beans for dinner should be less than 600 calories.

What do you mean by the eating window to reduce my IGF. What do you recommend ??

Couscous

10:33 pm
11 Oct 13
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Hi Ecka, I am replying to some of your comments not having pulled together all the bits of research I have done, mainly due to being extremely busy with family commitments. WiltUSA suggested in a long ago posting to use Google Scholar. Go onto this site, type in “IGF and Fasting”. You will get loads of varying research results that will make your question even more difficult to get a definitive answer to your question, sorry about that. As to “eating windows”, again Google this.An “Eating Window” is a selected time period when you eat your elected calorific intake for the day. There is a school of thought, researched to some extent that the body needs a certain time period to digest food. The suggestion is to eat your total daily calories say between 12 noon and 6pm for example. this gives your body time to digest food and go into healthy mode. Also to have a 16-18 hr daily fasting period. Rats, naturaly have shown positive inner health results by restricted time feeding.
Browse some posts about this but check the following, http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/retrieve and also http://www.io9.com/5979523/why-you-should-starve-yourself-a-little-each-day. This site also mentions Dr Valta Longo and Dr Krista Varady who Michael spoke to in his programme. There are other sites also that other posters have mentioned. Sorry if I am not clear enough but as I said I have not pulled all the research together on this.
Good Luck.

dlroseberry

4:05 am
12 Oct 13
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To lower IGF-1 you need to get protein consumption down. Not consuming protein on fast days might be enough, but it’s not unlikely that it won’t be if you consume large amounts of protein on non-fast days. As far as cholesterol, if you eat a high fat diet on non-fast days, I’d keep taking the statin. I’d take the statin anyway, actually. For me, fasting really helped my triglycerides, which even Crestor wasn’t helping very much. So I now take less Crestor because it’s very effective for me with lowering LDL while diet/exercise etc. don’t seem to work for me there. How’s your blood sugar? Did fasting help that?

fastinginberlin

6:28 am
12 Oct 13
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Hi Ecka, I just had my blood tests done for the first time since starting 5:2 about 6 months ago. I have lost about 23 lbs and thought my blood tests would show positive changes. I was quite shocked at my cholesterol increase (have been on no medication previously). My GP explained that fasting (as well as dieting, physical exertion etc.)can temporarily increase cholesterol. I have googled and found confirmation to this. I went for my test on Tuesday after a Monday fast. My GP never heard of 5:2 but generally considers fasting beneficial and thinks I should continue as everything else looked fine and recommended I have another test in 3 months. Next time I’ll go after a non-fasting day to see if it makes a difference. Sorry, no info on IGF – I currently live in Germany and these tests are only done if the physician deems them necessary.

Ecka

3:05 am
13 Oct 13
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Thanks all for your valuable input

Thanks to Couscous, I am now thinking about an eating window of only lunch and dinner between 2-8pm to reduce my IGF. However this may make the mornings challenging.

The strange result in all of my fasting, is that my IGF did not at least stabilise, But inexplicably increased from 18.6 to 21.3. What IGF should be aiming for anyway at 50 age ??

jpchellw

10:36 am
23 Nov 13
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Interesting discussion. Sorry to hear of your IGF-1 increase Ecka. What units of measurement are your blood results?

My husband and I both have been fasting 5:2 diligently for 17 weeks. It’s been a HARD third of a year! My blood results were disappointing with no clear change in cholesterol, triglycerides, or glucose although my IGF-1 dropped by 10% (22.9nmol/L to 20.4). Total and LDL cholesterol went up slightly. Grrr!

My husband’s results were impressive, though. Cholesterol dropped (4.6 to 3.8), LDL dropped significantly (3.0 to 1.1), Triglycerides dropped (1.3 to 1.1), 2hr glucose test dropped (8.0 to 7.7) and his IGF-1 dropped by 20% from 28.8 to 23.0 nmol/L.

We’re both pleased with our weight loss but that wasn’t why we did it. I was lean before I started with a BMI of around 20 (now 18.5).

I’ve been tempted to eat lots of protein on my ‘hungry days’ to help stave off hunger but after reading the discussion, I’ll stick to my porridge, dahl and brown rice.

I’m now on 6:1 with a two day fast once a month. It’s more manageable. I’ll report back after 6 months.

quizzle

7:51 pm
3 Dec 13
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Hi,
Say, what’s the reason for the high cholesterol? I’m on Atorvastatin as well but I never thought about dropping it since I’ m having familiar hypercholesterolemia. Maybe yours is also genetically caused so you shouldn’t expect too much even by 5:2 fasting.

I’m doing a “harder version” of 5:2 called 10in2 which is alternate day fasting. I believe fasting a complete day gives more value than just reducing the daily calory input. Since I’m under close medical observation I can’t confirm worse blood values by this way of fasting.
Maybe worth a try to check if this has better influence on IGF1?
See 10in2.at for details…

Q

Stef.

7:15 am
4 Dec 13
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Ecka, I am in the middle of reading Michael’s book and if I remember correctly he says on page 70 that if you eat a high protein diet your IGF will not go down.

Dlroseberries comment above is spot on.

Stef.

aleader

1:24 am
7 Dec 13
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I’m not sure why everyone here is so concerned about cholesterol.

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Cholesterol-Con-Disease/dp/1844546101

There have also been several other books/papers written…some LONG ago. Bottom line, fat does not make you fat, sugar (i.e. grains, high fructose foods/pop, certain fruits) does. I’m living proof. Went Paleo and lost 20lbs in a month, that I didn’t think I needed to lose, just by eliminating grains and dairy from my diet. Can’t put on fat now eating the way that I am even if I try.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-grains-are-unhealthy/#axzz2mkR8O1f1

FACTS: fat doesn’t make you fat, and dietary cholesterol does not raise your cholesterol levels! Again, eating eggs every day, I’m living proof. There is no such thing as ‘good and bad’ cholesterol. It’s just a way for pharma reps (like my bro-in-law in Seattle) to push Statins. CUT THE SUGAR AND FOODS THAT CONVERT TO SUGAR IN YOUR BODY.

I am interested in the fasting diet however for the possible overall longevity/health benefits, and am going to give it a try. I’m more than a little disappointed after reading ‘The Fast Diet’ as Michael and Mimi seem to be espousing many of the conventional myths that are still out there, mainly regarding fat and cholesterol.

quizzle

7:07 pm
7 Dec 13
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Fat doesn’t make you fat – that’s right. And only 20% of your cholesterol level can be affected by diet – that’s right too.

But since there are some people like me on this planet who have a genetically caused hpercholestolemia, I’m glad having Statins. I agree that way too many people ar worried and mistreated with Statins but in my case, it’s definitively needed. So I recommend first to check the family history to ensure that there’s no genetic background.

Q

peejay

4:05 am
2 Jan 16
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Interested in your results. Not sure I can tolerate two days a week every week, but 6:1 with a two-day week sounds more doable. How did it go?

jpchellw

4:58 am
2 Jan 16
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Hi Peejay, Thanks for your query. I’m still doing 6:1 and am managing ok with that. It helps keep my weight at a consistently good level. Looking at 4 years of blood results – started fasting two years ago – the fasting has had no lasting impact on cholesterol levels (good and bad, if such things exist) or fasting sugars. On 6:1 my IGF-1 has stayed well below the original 23 nmol/L although it has risen very slightly since changing from 5:2. Ironically, the only reason I can get free testing of this hormone is because my doctor thinks it’s so low. I still find fasting a challenge, though. I certainly appreciate eating normally on other days!

sentient Being

2:47 pm
3 Jan 16
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Hi ECKA

You can read my profile to know more, but i will add this for your consideration.
Stop worrying about High Cholesterol. The Liver will manufacture all the cholesterol you body needs, Your brain and Muscles and your skin all require cholesterol, Its the medical profession and the Big Pharma company marketing departments that are worrying you. The levels for good and bad cholesterol are arbitrary, look at the studies and research done and read “The cholesterol Myth” When we look at the insert that accompanies Statin Drugs, you will find a list of 40-41 side effects from depriving the body of cholesterol, the biggest side effect being Heart Failure and muscle wastage, closely followed in the medical research by Dementia. The real issue is not Total Cholesterol or even Good v Bad, its the Triglyceride v Bad Cholesterol count.

So what advice am i giving you, I note that you eat Oats for breakfast. Well all Oats and grains carry a high glycemic value and will raise your insulin levels faster than a chocolate covered sneaker bar, also the milk will be high in Lactose a sugar and you will probably sweeten this with Fruit which has Fructose a natural sugar or you will use processed cane sugar. You need to drop all wheat, that’s Breads, Pasta, wheetos, wheetabix, shredded wheat yes anything with wheat in it, milk, fruit, Potatoes, Rice, and ready meals. Forget the nutritional advise of the government sponsored agencies and follow the Zone diet or the Harvard Food Pyramid and eat a higher protein diet of oily fish [Protein slows down carbohydrate metabolism] and eat good fats like walnuts and avocado.

To reduce IGF start your day with some nuts and seeds and maybe a poached egg. then mid-morning have an apple its low Glycemic, for lunch have some chicken with dark greens and assorted whole foods like avocado[No Potatoes or Breads]. Have an apple and some nuts and seeds mid afternoon and another salad maybe salmon tomatoes celery peppers onion etc. Drink at least 8 glasses of water adding some himalayan salt so that you get all your minerals.

Basically, in order to reduce your IGF you need to go low carb, higher protein and go on an anti-inflammatory diet for 2 weeks and keep a Blood glucose count before starting and 1 hour after meals, your blood sugar should return to normal, 5-7 within 1 hour. Eat small meals the size of a small plate up to 5 times a day to stabalise Blood sugar and stop cravings. Every meal should include Fats as you will inhibit the absorption of fat soluble vitamins and you must drink water 15 mins before a meal to absorb water soluble vitamins.

With cholesterol, in order to reduce so-called cholesterol eat high anti-oxidant foods with Vit A,C,E to reduce Oxidation by free radicals and increse Vit D3 levels via Supplementation.
Remember, you need cholesterol otherwise you will likely get those deficiencies on the insert of the Statins Label, you can balance your cholesterol levels naturally. Please read “The Cholesterol Myth” the name of the doctor escapes me right now but his surname starts with an “M”

And dont worry stay calm as worry turns on your adrenals “fight or flight” mechanism and that will cause a false positive by raising your IGF.

hope this helps

sentient Being

3:06 pm
3 Jan 16
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Hi aleader

I noticed your comment after my reply to ECKA, I totally agree with your points raised and what we should be doing is converting our meal plate to its Sugar / Glucose Content or pay load. then we would be shocked by its effects on Insulin. I also agree that even with the 5:2 diet there is still bad advise being given as good advise, and the orthodoxy of good nutrition is still heavily in favour of junky grains and wheats of all sorts, processed foods that carry little in the way of nutritional density but lead to high blood insulin and chronic inflammation and malnutrition.

You make some very relevant points, which are lost on the majority of well intentioned professional people and others alike.

sentient Being

3:16 pm
3 Jan 16
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Hi

Just remeber Micheal is also part of the establishment of nutritional and medical “Orthodoxy” He needs people to eat junky grains and wheat in order to keep selling his diet books.

He is wrong on protein raising IGF as protein consumption slows down the rate carbs ie Glucose metabolism.

Just remember Heinz made us fat on ready meals and convenience foods and then invented Weight watchers to make us slim again, while increasing the girth of their bank accounts fatter.

sentient Being

3:27 pm
3 Jan 16
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Hi

Sorry to hear you will not listen to reason. You have rejected good advice for eating porridge and rice. [ read my Profile ]

It works like this:

All wheat, oats and grains are refined, meaning they lack nutrition required by our cells to function. Oats metabolise to Glucose which causes a rise in blood insulin and increase chronic inflammation by increased activation of the D-saturaze 5 enzyme which increases Aracadonic Acid and Protaglandin PGe2 the inflammatory activator of chronic cellular inflammation.

Please stay with the good sound advise of eating Proteins to slow IGF.

sentient Being

6:08 pm
3 Jan 16
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hi Couscous

The eating window you refer to is within the 3 8 hour cycles of the digestive system.

Your right to say that the assimilation of food is from 12 noon to 8pm. the reason for this is that eating a heavy breakfast causes us to be bloated and sluggish due to the fact that the digestive Juices inc HCL do not wake up untill around 10 oclock in the morning – thus food sits around in the stomach to long, our breakfasts should be light not a full english or the left overs of last nights curry.
Our Digestive juices also shut down 2 hours before see normally go to bed so 8pm is the latest time to eat a light supper.

It seems that the Jewish idea of the day starting and ending at 7pm and also its religious observance of Sabbaths [ sometimes observed more than once a week] is relevant here too.

I also agree that there is research which suggests that restricting foods may also reduce mortality in humans as it does in rats.

In my clinical nutrition It is robustly asserted with much evidence that increasing protein does not necessarily increase IGF if at all and even then there are a myriad of Proteins. So exactly which Proteins cause IGF perhaps dear old Micheal should tell us. lets not forget that you have dark green leafy plant as-well-as animal proteins.

regards