Atoms are the key

This topic contains 6 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by dykask 7 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 7 posts - 1 through 7 (of 7 total)

davidfitness46

5:23 pm
20 Jul 17
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Why is the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics ignored?

I wish people would use the calorie model to lose weight, eat less calories than you need and move more, this causes you to breathe more…you breathe out mostly carbon.

Calculations show that the lungs are the primary excretory organ for fat. Losing weight requires unlocking the carbon stored in fat cells, thus reinforcing that often heard refrain of “eat less, move more.” We recommend these concepts be included in secondary school science curriculums and university biochemistry courses to correct widespread misconceptions about weight loss.

This was copied and pasted from..http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g7257

fitnfast

8:54 pm
20 Jul 17
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Sorry, but I completely disagree. Fat loss has absolutely NOTHING to do with counting calories ( or atoms or thermodynamics), and everything to do with insulin control. That’s why 5:2 works. That’s why fasting works. That’s why low carb and ketogenic works ( if they are done right).

And that’s all I have to say. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

bigbooty

11:17 pm
20 Jul 17
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I think youre wanting to quote the first law and not the third unless your operating at zero kelvin? Of course you can not disobey the first law but the error comes about by treating the three variables as independent variables, and they are not. Energy in = energy out + stored energy. What you eat (energy in) affects what is stored and what is consumed (energy out). What you store affects what is consumed (energy out). etc. The variables are not independent.

For example lets say you are eating cheap processed carbs which spikes your insulin. Under these conditions you are prevented from accessing stored energy (fat). Your system to balance the equation must reduce energy expenditure if energy input is restricted. i.e. You are always lacking energy and feeling tired. Or you are always feeling cold.

If you honestly believe that consistently eating 2000 cal or sugar per day will achieve the same result as eating 2000 cal of cruciferous veggies, go for it and tell me how you went after a month.

dykask

6:17 am
21 Jul 17
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bigbooty has it correct!

Thermodynamics really doesn’t tell one anything about metabolism. The body doesn’t violate any laws but the human body is an open system and as bigbooty pointed out the variable aren’t independent.

Metabolism is exceeding complex and there are wide variations between people.

For example in my case I cut sugar but ended up increasing calories and actually started losing fat. I was thrilled and tried even cutting back on fruit and I started losing ground. I increased the fruit and I’m doing great on that. So on one hand I put on fat eating processed food or adding sugar but the sugar in the fruit doesn’t seem to be brothering me. It isn’t the calories it is the content of the diet. Another person would probably have diff

Now calories are an important factor. If I were to boost my 2500 calories (NFD) to say 5000 I probably would gain fat. However I would probably gain a lot less than the calorie math suggests. In the USA the FDA publishes statistics on the amount of food consumed and wasted. They show 2700+ calories / day per captia, that includes children! Still even if that is 100 calories extra on average you would expect people to be gaining 10 lbs / year, but on the average it is less then 5 pounds. That just shows that the calorie math doesn’t work as expected.

Anyway the body doesn’t count calories or even care about calories. Food is broken down and used differently through different metabolic pathways. Calories is just a measurement of energy and is only a proxy for what is really going on in the body.

At this point I firmly believe the eating healthy food is much more important than the amount of calories. If you eat healthy your body will let you know when to stop eating. Oh and I also agree with what fitfast said.

HappyNow

7:53 am
21 Jul 17
Permalink

David,

‘Eat less, move more’. Nope, that’s been pretty much debunked (certainly for most overweight/obese individuals, e.g.

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/eat-less-move-more/

And you might also want to read Jason Fung on the subject of calories in/calories out:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/

bigbooty

9:55 am
21 Jul 17
Permalink

Peter Attia also has a blog and covers this topic. He studied as a physicist and then as a medical doctor. Its pretty heavy going as he does not write for the layperson.

The paper by Meerman that you quote just tells you where the consumed fat goes. It says nothing about HOW those processes interact to produce the final result.

If you eat crap processed foods your endocrine system will respond in a particular manner which will make it almost impossible to counter. Even the most wilful person will eventually succumb to the signals being generated by your endocrine system. That’s the way its been designed, and for good reason. Crap foods in = limited energy out + weight gain is probably a better equation to be using.

dykask

10:29 am
21 Jul 17
Permalink

In my case I used to firmly believe in CICO (Calories In Calories Out). I even thought people talking about low carb diets were wacky. I really didn’t have a problem cutting back and dropping a few pounds, at least until my doctor told me I needed to lose as least 20 pounds. I was at 232lbs (106kg) then and getting quite obese. I started out will move more and eat less …

For the first 8 or 9 months I made really good progress, but I was pretty miserable. Hunger was a constant issue and I wasn’t building much muscle although I was getting stronger. In general I tried to eat less than 2000 calories a day. I managed to lose almost 40lbs, but then it stopped.

I spent two years fighting it. I wasn’t happy and I didn’t make progress. I ate less and was still putting on some fat. I was spending insane amounts of time working out and it wasn’t helping. I was constantly hungry. Then I decided to make a really drastic cut and I gave up the one treat I allowed myself, my daily ice cream bar. I was thinking I’ll take another 300 calories out of my daily diet.

What happen is my constant hunger faded away. In fact I started feeling better. I started studying like crazy because I was eating less and feeling less hunger. I added back peanuts and mixed nuts into my daily diet and started losing some fat around my middle. Now I was eating even more and losing fat. I made a lot more changes and greatly reduced the added sugar. My daily calories had gone from around 1700 after cutting ice cream to more like 2300. I started focusing on HIIT workouts and cut way back on the time I spent working out. The fat started melting off. My hunger was now very mild.

I was feeling good and started experimenting with fasting. This slowly lead me to the 5:2 style of eating which I was fearful of at first but it turned out to be quite easy. However I do zero calorie fasting and eat a little more on my NFDs. My goal is just fat reduction.

My problem wasn’t calories it was my diet that was preventing my insulin levels from dropping low enough for me to use some of my fat. As I increased how much I was eating my body probably had the resources to start building more muscle too.

That is just me, the story would be different for someone else. However I learned that while how much I eat is important, it wasn’t as important as what I eat. I also learned that when I eat makes a difference. On NFDs from breakfast to supper I’ll allow a snack if I need it, but every day I try to have a good 10 to 14 hours between supper and breakfast. When I fast I don’t eat because I want to lower my insulin and encourage HGH production as much as possible.

People have really noticed the changes. My last check up my doctor was very pleased with the improvements in my health. I used to have blood pressure that rarely was less then 140+/90+, my last check up it was 114/72. Now my weight is about the same as when I was in college and still slowly dropping as I continue to lose fat. I’m trying to build muscle so that work against weight loss. To top it all off I’m eating about 25% more calories over a week than I was when I was gaining fat.

Just a little common sense should have told me how powerful hormones are. My 13 year old daughter out eats me but is very slim and only weights 50% of what I do.

Yes calories are a factor and if you continuously overeat you will likely put on fat. However for at least some people like myself, eating less and moving more isn’t a long term solution. It can work to some degree, but it needs to be at least coupled with healthy food choices.