Lost 2 3/4lb while sleeping

This topic contains 10 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by cyberduck 10 years, 1 month ago.

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cyberduck

9:15 am
3 Oct 14
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I’m not sure how this fits in with the scientific theory and was wondering if anybody can explain how I lost 2 3/4 lb overnight. I weighed myself 3 times before going to bed and all readings were the same and this morning I weighed myself 3 times and all readings were the same. The scales were in the same position. I had a wee in the night which I weighed at 1/4 lb.

This is the third week of dieting and I have lost 7lb and 4lb. I only weighed myself on the Monday of each week.

I’m 54 years old male and weighed 15 stone 11 lb before starting. I’m 5′ 10″ and I would describe myself as lightly active. I sit in front of a computer all day and play 2 rounds of golf a week.

I fast on Tuesdays & Thursdays so yesterday was the second fast day of the week and I weighed 14 stone 7 1/4 lb this morning.

If my understanding of the science is correct, water is lost in the first couple of weeks as glycogen is used up because of the calorie deficit. You then lose fat or muscle.

1 lb of fat is supposed to be about 3500 calories. I think muscle is about 1700.

According to the web sites calculator my BMR is 1800 calories. So sleeping for 8 hours should burn 600 calories.

Can anybody explain what is going on?

Dummerchen

10:37 am
3 Oct 14
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You sweat during the night and continue to burn up energy, which leaves the body in the form of water and CO2. During the day you then refuel and rehydrate, putting some of the weight back into the body in the form of food and drink. It is natural to weigh considerably less in the morning than in the evening.

With regards to the glycogen stores: during a fast you deplete the glycogen and your body will switch to fat burning. This takes about 12 to 16 hours and is the reason why fasting for the longest possible period is recommended. However, as soon as the fast is over and you start to eat, your body will replenish the glycogen. Short term fasting does not cause loss of lean (muscle) tissue because your body has access to fat stores which are much easier to use than muscle. Several studies have shown this.
In long term calorie restricted diets, the typical calorie counting or if fasting is extended to more than 3 to 4 days, this is a little different because the metabolic adaptation which occurs over time will cause some loss of lean tissue. This can be partially prevented by resistance training; due to this an exercise regime needs to go hand in hand with the classic “eat less” diet.

cyberduck

5:00 pm
3 Oct 14
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Thanks. That’s interesting about the weight in the evening & morning being different.

In regard to the glycogen store. Wouldn’t it remain depleted as long as you don’t have a period where calorie intake exceeds the energy used? So in simple terms, once the glycogen store is used up, then as long as you don’t eat more calories in a day than the TDEE, you will be burning fat or muscle every day on the diet.

Dummerchen

7:58 pm
3 Oct 14
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No, the moment you eat more than the body needs at that very moment your body starts to replenish the glycogen stores which is basically at any meal or snack. After all, your body needs fuel continuously over 24 hours and not only during the 20 minutes you take to wolf down dinner.
Where else should the 400 or 500 kcal from your dinner go until they are needed?

cyberduck

8:37 pm
3 Oct 14
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Yes, any surplus energy from carbohydrates converts to glycogen but if you start the day with no glycogen store and your TDEE is greater than your total energy intake then you start the next day with no glycogen store as that is supposed to be the first energy source that gets used up.

So for a person who has been putting on weight as fat they will most likely start the diet with a full glycogen store then the first fast day will clear it out and from then on every day will be started with an empty glycogen store provided the TDEE is not exceeded during any 24 hour period.

So this morning I would have had no glycogen after fasting for 1 day & 2 nights. My TDEE is approximately 2400 calories and I have consumed about 2000 (not all carbohydrate though) so at some point before tomorrow morning any glycogen that has been added will have been burnt off and at least 400 calories will have to come from fat/muscle.

Then on the next fast day you will be starting the day with no glycogen stored. Only 600 calories will be ingested with not all that being carbohydrate so fat and muscle will be burnt off to a calorific value of at least 1800 calories.

Does that sound right?

Dummerchen

9:05 am
4 Oct 14
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No.

You might start the day with no or little glycogen in store but then you eat breakfast, 500 kcal. 17 are needed that very second, the rest goes into storage. All carbs from breakfast will be made into glycogen. This will happen after each meal.
The glycogen stored in muscle can only be used by that muscle, it cannot be released back into the blood stream. So during a normal eating day your muscle glycogen is mainly repleted unless you are working out hard and therefore you usually start a fasting day with a reasonable amount of glycogen in store. The liver glycogen goes up and down during the day depending on meal times.

On top of that, short term fasting does not lead the body to catabolise lean muscle tissue. When you eat above your BMR and only slightly below your TDEE on non fast days your body prefers to burn fat for energy, the metabolic pathway is much easier and quicker than to catabolise muscle tissue. That is one of the big advantages of IF compared to daily calorie restrictions.

cyberduck

8:42 pm
5 Oct 14
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Thanks.

I’ve done a lot of diets (different types) in my time and I must admit that what I’ve read and what I’ve experienced differs to what you are saying. I’m actually quite good at losing weight, it’s just I lapse into bad habits when I’ve reached my target weight.

Whenever I start a diet I always see 7lb or 8lb loss in the first week. I’ve read and been told that most of this is water when the glycogen gets burned up and releases the water that it binds to. Then weight loss tends to average about 1lb or 2lb a week until I stop dieting when there’s a big increase (say 5lb) which I’ve been told is the glycogen reserves (+water) filling back up.

I don’t really see the 5:2 diet being any different to a low calorie diet, except the calories are reduced by about 1700 on 2 days rather than by a smaller amount each day. The 3400 reduction equates to about 1lb of fat. I don’t think there’s anything magic about fasting or the 5:2 diet, it’s just about net calories over the long term. However some people probably find it easier to be disciplined for 2 days rather than 7. There may be some other benefits to health from fasting and this may or may not apply to the 5:2 diet.

Can you point me to any studies which back up what you are saying about glycogen levels and fat v muscle loss? I have seen studies that claim to show that low deficit diets lose more fat as a percentage of weight lost than high deficit diets. I’m not sure whether there any fat v muscle studies relating to the 5:2 diet though.

Dummerchen

9:03 am
6 Oct 14
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Read any text book on human physiology. Read Michael Mosley’s book and get all the studies referenced in there. Read “Eat Stop Eat” by Brad Pillon and get all the references in there.

Sorry, there are hundreds of studies on all forms of diet, including intermittent fasting. It is impossible to link them all here; some aren’t even available online as they were done before the internet was invented.

https://thefastdiet.co.uk/forums/topic/does-intermittent-fasting-lead-to-muscle-breakdown-and-protein-deficiency/

cyberduck

11:22 am
6 Oct 14
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Thanks. I have been reading up on human physiology. That is why I am concerned. I’ve also done searches on the subject of IF and can only find one study by Gabriel J. Wilson which was conducted on rats. Results would indicate you could be losing muscle.

Your link shows I am right to be concerned. You’ve got one expert saying not to fast for more than 24 hours and Michael Mosley claiming he doesn’t. Keeping up protein intake is recommended. The study by Dr Krista Varady claims no muscle loss in an 8 week period but is a test on 16 humans and limits fasting to 24 hours. The summary makes no reference to protein consumption.

In regard to glycogen levels. Everything I read says that glycogen is used first when blood levels of glucose are insufficient to meet the bodies fuel requirements. This would mean that somebody eating less than their TDEE once these levels are depleted after a fast day will not start the day with a glycogen store (I note your point about glycogen stored in the muscles and therefore refer to liver stored glycogen).

Dummerchen

1:16 pm
6 Oct 14
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cyberduck, we are talking about intermittent fasting total fast of less than 24 hours. You cannot compare the effects of this with a diet of daily calorie restriction. “The other expert” does not contradict Varady and all the other researches into IF.

Regarding glycogen stores, I have already explained to you that ey are replenished the moment you eat. They are probably not completely depleted over night either, or do you run marathons during your sleep?

cyberduck

5:51 pm
6 Oct 14
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Re. glycogen store, let me explain with a simplified example. Let us assume that TDEE for a person is 2400 calories and that use is linear @ 100 calories an hour. Let us assume they eat 500 calories for breakfast @ 0800, 500 calories for lunch @ 1300 and 1000 calories for dinner at 1900.

For the 24 hour period starting at 0600 we see:

0600 glycogen store = 0 burning fat
0700 glycogen store = 0 burning fat
0800 breakfast, glycogen store = 500, burning glycogen
0900 glycogen store = 400, burning glycogen
1000 glycogen store = 300, burning glycogen
1100 glycogen store = 200, burning glycogen
1200 glycogen store = 100, burning glycogen
1300 lunch, glycogen store = 500, burning glycogen
1400 glycogen store = 400, burning glycogen
1500 glycogen store = 300, burning glycogen
1600 glycogen store = 200, burning glycogen
1700 glycogen store = 100, burning glycogen
1800 glycogen store = 0, burning fat
1900 dinner, glycogen store = 1000, burning glycogen
2000, glycogen store = 900, burning glycogen
…
0500, glycogen store = 0, burning fat

So in the 24 hour period we burn 400 calories of fat and the glycogen store is empty when we get up. No marathon, just 2400 calories of energy used in a 24 hour period.