do zero calorie days work

This topic contains 25 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Newburk 7 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 26 posts - 1 through 26 (of 26 total)

  • I am male, 177cm and have been as heavy as 136kgs. Through using a variety of strategies, but mainly a controlled diet of 1200cals per day courtesy of a meal supply company, I have recently been down to 99kg. Several years ago I took myself from 126kg to 80 kg in 12 months using a soup diet and then put it on and more in the following couple of years. So I have some experience with diets.
    I have had two periods of fasting. The first, a year ago, when I travelled for four months and did alternate day fasting with zero calories on fasting days. I wasn’t religious about missing fasting days but sometimes did two zero days of fasting to catch up. In that time I managed to only put on 3kg. Had I been eating carelessly I would have put on 10-15kgs in the same period. I can stack it on really fast.
    The second time has been the last three or four months when I have been doing a 4-3 pattern (fasting Monday, Wednesday and Fridays) with zero calories on fasting days. To my frustration I have gone from 99kgs to 108 in that time.
    I am really frustrated because I want this so much to work. I see it as a strategy I can happily employ for life. The reason I like the fasting idea is that I can easily go one, two even three days without any food but once I eat on any day I have great difficulty stopping. I just munch all day till I sleep, not mountains of food but more than is good for me.
    Nowhere can I find reference in Michael’s info to testing on zero calorie fasts. I am now wondering if it is necessary for some reason to eat the 600cals to teach the body something. Any thoughts gratefully considered. Are there any others facing a similar dilemma? I am now going to try eating the 600cals per fasting day but….

    Have you tried consuming up to your TDEE on 5 days and up to 600 calories on the 2 FD?

    If you look under ‘resources’ at the top of the page, there is a drop down menu, select ‘bmi calculator’, which is all carefully explained. It is very easy to undo your good work if you eat and drink with abandon on the other days.

    This is not a diet, but a way of life. You can eat what you like, just not how much you want. There will have to be changes if you want to lose weight and keep it off.

    Can I suggest 2 books that have helped me? One is ‘that sugar book’ by Damon Gameau(it will change the way that you think about healthy food) and the other one is ‘fat chance, the hidden truth about sugar, obesity and disease-the basic premise is that we are not overweight because we are weak and feeble with no will power etc, but simply because our biochemistry was designed when lives were very different. He is an endocrinologist who dispels the diet myths, explains what happens when we eat and how we become fat…and what to eat to become healthier and slimmer. Nothing weird, good food, avoid anything that has diet or low fat too.

    Thanks for your reply Annette52.

    I guess I was hoping for a situation where I didn’t have to think about how much and what I eat. Friends who know me well agree that I don’t eat ‘too’ much and what I eat is reasonably balanced. Yet I can put on weight just looking at food it seems. As I said I always lose weight using the calorie controlled meals from a meal supplier but I don’t see that as a continuing life-long option. I will return to that diet if I can’t get this working. But to do it for ever is not an option I am willing to contemplate.

    I was hoping 3-4, 5-2 or 6-1 would eventually provide a maintenance diet, if not weight loss, especially since I have been doing three days of zero cals. What attracted me to this diet was the section in the documentary where the American woman insisted that one could eat anything on non-fasting days. She claimed her assertion was evidence based? As I said I don’t eat a great deal but I certainly liked the idea of not having to watch what I ate on non-fasting days. Its the same reason I do zero cals on fasting days. I don’t want to think about it – I eat or I don’t.

    I am also aware of the concerns about sugar. I have been weaning myself off it for a couple of years now but couldn’t claim to be completely free of it yet.
    Thanks again for your comments.

    Hi crican,

    Unfortunately eat anything you want does not mean eat as much as you want. 5:2 works well but neither Michael or Mimi had much weight to lose because they didn’t overeat to the extent that the majority of us have. Many of us have a large number of pounds/kilos to eat due to years of overeating and have no sense of portion control.
    I’ve being following this WOE for almost three years with a couple of breaks where I regained some of the weight lost. Prior to this I’ve been on every diet under the sun, always lost weight and always regained it plus more. I am finally succeeding in getting rid of my bad eating habits but old habits die hard.
    Today I am 28.5 kilos less than when I started and am determined to keep going and lose the remaining 9.5.It hasn’t always been easy and I gained a few kilos in the middle of last year and am finding it difficult to get back to losing weight again as I’m eating too much on non fast days and undoing all the good work which is somewhat frustrating.I know I can do it and won’t be giving up any time soon.

    My suggestion would be to do as annette suggests and calculate your TDEE and then do 5:2 for two weeks counting every calorie every day. It is a bit of a chore but it will be an eye opener for you when you realise exactly how many calories are in your meals and equip you with the knowledge you need to eat well but not over TDEE on non fast days.

    Good luck.

    Sorry for bursting your bubble. If we could eat what and how much, then no one would be overweight. No one puts on weight just by looking at food either. It must be very expensive using these meals as well.

    You might be thinking of Krista Vardy. I think she believed that alternate day fasting worked for her(ADF) but do check.

    I wish you well and hope that you will let us know what you decide and how you get on.

    If I can help…….

    Annette

    5:2 is simple you just follow the pattern and you will lose weight. That the simple part.

    If you have only water on fast days you will loose more weight. How much is the question maybe a 1/3 of a pound more. But you may see increased health benefits and greater weight loss because you will spend more time in the “fat burning” stage

    Here is where I get windy ……

    5:2 Fasting is caloric restriction.

    1. Calculate your TDEE using the BMI tool under resources at the top of the page. http://thefastdiet.co.uk/how-many-calories-on-a-non-fast-day/

    2. Fast days are 36 hours stop eating on the evening prior to fast day, sleep, get up fast, sleep get up and eat normally. Do this twice a week.

    During the fast day you can eat 25% (1/4) of you TDEE Example Male 45 at 177 CM tall and 100 Kg with a sedentary lifestyle the TDEE would be 2264 Cal. Fast day intake allowed would be 566 Cal (I’d round it down to 500) which gives you a caloric deficit each fast day of 1764 on the fast day. Times 2 = 3528 which equates about a pound weight loss a week. Have zero calories on fast day and you add another 1000 calories deficit per week

    Now everyone is different and your mileage may vary.

    I suggest keeping a food diary recording everything that goes into your mouth. ie Vitamin C chewable table 8 calories each. No name brand multivitamin 5 calories. 1 pistachio nut 4 calories. 1/3 of cup (a palm full)adds 109 Calories. Knowing where your energy is coming from can show you where things have a tendency to add up and send you off the rails.

    If you have a metabolism that is low for some reason and there are many who have metabolic disorders. You will have to adjust your TDEE accordingly.

    Alternate fasting as proposed by Dr. Varaday will cause you to loose weight. Provided your normal diet isn’t double what your caloric intake should be. Ie. your TDEE is 2264 and you normally eat 4528 calories. You’d have a zero calorie deficit and not lose weight. In Dr.Varaday’s initial study it showed on feast days people consumed 125% of their normal diet so you would gain weight.

    Weight lose is a total required energy to move around and exist through the day, (TDEE) minus energy reduction. Reduce energy two ways restrict intake ie. fast or increase the use of stored energy (fat) through exercise and movement or both calorie restriction and exercise. It takes a LOT of exercise to loose a pound. 200 lb person would have to walk around and extra 11 hours a week to loose 1 pound.

    Hi crican-

    I am new to the concept of intermittent fasting but I have been dieting all my life.

    One of the things I’ve learned about my body is that it does NOT respond to the “sensible” conventional plans. Another is that I am more able to fast than I am to restrict myself.

    What I have been doing for the last 4 weeks is my own version of a 5:2 IF. It is working very nicely. I haven’t weighed myself but I’m down 3 jean sizes and I haven’t felt at all deprived.

    I do a water fast on two consecutive days over the weekend when I am able to keep busy. I don’t believe there’s any way I could limit myself to 500 calories if I started eating on a fast day. So I just don’t eat at all.

    During the week I don’t bother with things like calories but I have one enormous salad that’s about half cold vegetables and half greens plus garbanzo beans for lunch with a generous amount of conventional — not calorie or fat reduced — salad dressing. For dinner I have as much protein as I like and that’s really quite a lot. I usually have something like chicken or salmon. But if I go out I choose something like protein and veggies from a menu and that works too even though there may be a sauce or something.

    I do NOT eat grains or peanut butter. I avoid cheese. These are trigger foods for me. You may be fine with them but cutting them out entirely keeps me from feeling hungry when I’m not. And I don’t snack between meals except if I am VERY hungry ( which rarely happens) or if I have a lot of stomach acids (still trying to figure out why that happens to me when I don’t eat), In one of those cases, I have some chicken broth or tomato juice.

    I take a multi-vitamin, a probiotic and enzymes in the morning whether I’m fasting or not. I take them with a slug of almond oil because many vitamins are fat, not water, soluble. I drink lots of water on fast days and eating days.

    When I stick to this I am not hungry and I don’t feel deprived in any way. I feel like a normal person. Reason enough to tell myself firmly on Friday nights that the following morning begins a fast! Dropping 3 jeans sizes so far is the big bonus. As is the nice reset I get on my appetite after my 2 day water fast. And, mostly, I like how uncomplicated this is.

    Don’t know that anyone needs to adopt what works for me. But I did want you to know that I find a water fast very helpful. And I hope you’ll find what works for you.

    Hi LA, I’m completely with you regarding grains. I had been doing beautifully this month, avoided all processed carbs and sugar, not feeling deprived at all, fasted regularly and ate under my tdee on nfds. I then ate out on Tuesday, ordered a lovely salad which unexpectedly came with a warm half baguette which unfortunately I couldn’t resist. Since then I’ve craved and given in to bread every day and ended up around 500 cals over my tdee every day. I’ve also wanted, and eaten chocolate too. Bread is clearly a massive trigger for me and to be avoided. Determined to get “clean” again from today. I felt so much better before the bread attack so onwards and upwards and have learned something important about myself. Hopefully when I get to my target weight I will be able to find a way to enjoy bread occasionally without sabotaging myself.

    Hi Crican,

    Im a male 178cm tall and I started out at 92kg. Im now 77kg and shooting for 74kg. I do a 5:2 on consecutive days with the occasional 4:3 with one day in between. My fast days are essentially zero calories. Maybe 100 calories as I have a couple cups of coffee with skim milk, maybe a glass of fruit or veg juice in the morning. I cant be bothered counting calories so this is an easy way for me to do the diet. Im losing weight but its slow. Maybe 0.5kg/week, sometimes less. But for me its do-able and simple so this is the version of the diet Im doing.

    Lets be realistic here. If you are doing 5:2 or even 4:3 and are still stacking on the weight then you must be eating more than 2 times your TDEE on your non fasting days. If that’s the case then you really need to calculate your TDEE and keep a good diary so that you can record what the correct TDEE amount of food looks like and then compare it to how much you must be eating.

    The 5:2 diet is not a magic bullet. The non fast days are not a free for all. Im also a big advocate for minimal sugar intake. Unfortunately this takes some effort as any and all processed foods will contain significant amounts sugar. Stay away from the “healthy muesli and breakfast cereals as they are disaster zones with respect to sugar content.

    Good luck with it.

    In short: no, there is nothing magical about 600 cals. It simply means you don’t get as hungry or frustrated and therefore are more like to continue the diet. Zero cals is better if you want quicker weight loss.

    crican,
    Don’t know whether you saw the BBC2 Horizon tv program in 2012?
    Basically the reason Michael picked the arbitrary 500-600 calories to eat on a fast day was that he found it difficult not to eat at all on fast days, so knew that it would not work long term for him and at some point he would probably give up.
    Not sciencey enough for me 🙂

    I want to restrict IGF-1 on fast days – I do not know, for my body, how many calories consumed would trigger me making IGF-1 – so 0 calories is the only way I can be sure that I am having somne affect on my IGF-1.
    Also, eating no calories means that I am depleting stored glycogen and so am burning fat sooner. And simple maths, fewer calories in = greater chance of weight loss, or less chance of weight gain.

    Thanks to all the people who replied.
    I understand now that zero days are ok. That’s the good bit I got from the comments. Reluctantly I now understand the ‘calories in’ idea. The other sad/bad bit was that I am supposed to think about how much I eat on ‘feast’ days (remember at one stage it was called a’feast and fast diet’. I don’t want to have to count. I was hoping that continued use of something like the 4-3 version would lead to reduced intake on eating days. While I don’t want to count I do find it hard to believe that to gain weight I have to be eating twice as much as normal people on my eating days.
    I came across a thread called “Is Anyone NOT counting calories on their “eat” days?”. Now that I have cleared up the zero days issue this more clearly addresses my remaining concern. While it hasn’t really helped yet many of the contributors are, like me, looking for something they can do for life – not just another ‘diet’. So I will also follow that thread looking for ideas to get me on track.
    Again thanks for your comments and suggestions.

    I don’t count calories at all. But I don’t approach a food day as a “feast” either. I know that some occasional treats are supposed to be OK on food days but that wouldn’t work for me. I need to lose a lot of weight so it only stands to reason that I can’t do that with sugar and starchy carbs. Maybe you’ll find you can manage something wonderful from time to time. But if it sets up the demand to eat more, what did it really accomplish for you?

    The wonderful thing about intermittent fasting is that our bodies get “a rest” from food and I find that that resets my metabolism to “effective” and my appetites to “sane”. When that happens Im not fighting *anything*. I don’t feel deprived. Or regret what I can and can’t have. That calm feeling that I can go on about my life is its own reward!

    Your appetites sound like mine as does your impatience with counting calories. If you still have out of control cravings can I suggest that you look for some trigger food hidden in processed food you may be eating? But first you have to know your trigger foods. Do you? For me it’s grains, sugar and peanuts. They make me feel “hungry” every. single. time. regardless of how much or how often I’ve eaten. I have to be *very* careful with cheese and sweet fruit so it makes more sense for me to avoid them and not have to fight them.

    Keep experimenting with what you do and don’t tolerate well. Keep trying out different schedules of intermittent fasting. If you identify and eliminate your problem foods and meet the genuine needs of your own personal metabolism you should calm the urges to eat the wrong things and at the wrong times and still manage to lose weight without counting calories or feeling deprived.

    One thing I’d suggest with regard to the treats is that you have them at the end of your day. Then when you head to bed you’ll miss the sugar spikes while you’re sleeping and not be bothered with the craving the next day.

    Best of luck!

    Interesting post. What is sad or bad about 5:2.

    Diets are done by people who overeat. That is, eat more than their bodies need.

    Diets work because people eat less than they need, the body uses its reserves of fat, and they lose weight. Job done.

    Diets don’t fail. They are hugely successful.

    The sad thing is that people fail. They end the diet, which is fine, some people then figure out how much their bodies need to maintain weight. Most people however, start the whole cycle once again eating more than they need, and put the weight back on, and usually more.

    5:2 isn’t sad or bad, it is a great way of, first of all stopping weight gain, and then weight loss. It is better than a diet because there are no food restrictions, and two rules. Severely restrict two days a week and eat what your body needs on 5 days. It helps us to understand what our body needs by showing if we eat little or nothing two days a week, we don’t die, or eat our arm, or faint from hunger, or even actually feel the need to stand in front of the fridge and grab everything in sight.

    A revelation to many over eaters!

    To understand ‘feast’ we need to understand that, when 5:2 is done by people who don’t overeat, who are able to manage to eat exactly what they need to maintain their weight, and therefore don’t have fat reserves from overeating, they can, and should, ‘feast’ ie overeat, to make up for the calories they missed on fast days.

    So 5:2 might be for life, perhaps purely for the health benefits. The evidence of millions of people successfully completing diets and then regaining the weight suggests that retraining the brain to work out how much the body needs would be either a long-term or even a lifetime commitment. Especially as we need a lot less food at our target weight that the amount we can eat at the beginning of the 5:2 journey.

    So be pleased that, with 5:2, once you have reached your target weight, as long as you continue with 5:2, you CAN FEAST on your feast days. You will have to overeat to maintain your target weight. As long as it isn’t too much feasting, alternatively feast less and fast less, like most people who do 6:1 to maintain. Or your brain may have figured out by then how much you need every day for the rest of your life and you can stop 5:2. Which would be good, but a pity to abandon 5:2 and its health benefits.

    Your choice, your rules.

    Food for thought eh???

    Up until very recently I thought all calories were the same. Depending on your genetic makeup you will respond differently to carbs, protein and fat intake even if the total caloric intake is the same.

    To give yourself a fighting chance I would eliminate or severely reduce sugar intake. No chocolate, sugar drinks, ice cream, biscuits, cakes etc. If you suffer from big insulin spikes its going to make it almost impossible to stop craving more food. Stay away from artificial sweeteners as well. While they contain no calories the sweetness plays havoc with your brain which is expecting to get a glucose hit. When it doesn’t arrive you will go searching for that hit by eating more than you originally wanted to. As a friend said to me, whens the last time you saw a skinny person drinking a Pepsi Max or Coke zero. Ditch em.

    OK crican jump in and give it a genuine try. For you non fast days work out what youre TDEE amount of food looks like. Lay it out in front of you. Get a feel for what that looks like so you don’t blow your TDEE. Then just do it. Keep a diary if you must and give it a go.

    Avoid anything ‘diet’ or ‘low fat’ too as they are all full of sugar. Full fat yoghurt is lower sugar than the diet! Jar tomato sauces are also very high in sugar, so make your own. Sweeteners play havoc with the liver and are best avoided too.

    Have a look at ‘that sugar book’ by Damon Gameau-“this book will change the way you think about ‘healthy’ food” and another is ‘fat chance, the hidden truth about sugar, obesity and disease’ by Dr Robert Lustig-full od advice on what to eat and what to avoid and why. Explains how we get fat, why diets don’t work etc.

    I have given up sugar in my tea now-after 40+ years and eat less processed and more wholefoods, with the result that I feel better, am shrinking and eat far less of the sweet stuff.

    “Stay away from artificial sweeteners as well. While they contain no calories the sweetness plays havoc with your brain which is expecting to get a glucose hit. When it doesn’t arrive you will go searching for that hit by eating more than you originally wanted to. ”

    YES!!! I discovered this about 8 years ago when I was in a supervised weight loss group. As a result I gave up soft drinks. That was one of the things that I credit with getting me to this moment when I feel like I can truly succeed. Even when I went off the rail on that diet and subsequent ones I never went back to sodas.

    The other thing I did way back then was give up fast food. All of it. On occasions when I’ve had some since I am amazed at how disappointing I find it!

    “Avoid anything ‘diet’ or ‘low fat’ too as they are all full of sugar. Full fat yoghurt is lower sugar than the diet! Jar tomato sauces are also very high in sugar, so make your own. Sweeteners play havoc with the liver and are best avoided too.”

    That is another one of the things I’ve learned about how the processed food industry plays on our biology and uses it against us. You’re right about the way they up the sugar calories in low fat foods, annette. Of course when the total calories are higher the percentage of fat calories goes down but the benefits certainly do NOT!

    Another thing they do is hide the sources of sugars by combining the types of sugars so that individual ones seem less significant. It’s not just sugar we need to avoid but honey, fructose and, really, anything that ends in “-ose” or “-ace”. And they will use various of them so that they all appear as “minor” ingredients.

    5:2 isn’t a diet it’s a pattern of eating. So you won’t fail a diet. All of us are successful eaters, overly successful most of us.

    Working at 5:2 being conscious of what we are doing and why, mindful of the purpose in doing this pattern. Thinking about everything we are going to consume before we do, “is this going to advance me in this pattern or send me in a direction I don’t want to go?”

    I suggest keeping a strict food diary every bite you take for as long as you can stick to doing it. This will show you that yeah I grazed on that handful of pistachios from the bowel every time I passed it at 109 calories each time. It adds up. So does taste testing when you’re cooking. I was getting up to 250 calories a day extra at times.

    Think before consuming.

    5:2 isn’t difficult it’s easy 1. fast two days a week for 36 hours. 2. Eat within your TDEE the other 5. Keep on keeping on and you’ll get to where you’re going. Forget where you came from and where you’re going (and why) and you will get lost.

    Shouldn’t a fast day, whether 24 or 36 hours, involve not eating anything at all? Isn’t that what fasting is? I would like to hear more on why it was decided that consuming a limited number of calories on a fast day would still work, and constitute a fast.

    Hi Newburk, the answer to your question is in the 5:2 documentary in which Dr Mosley looked at different types of fasting, and the health benefits.
    Because he found the strict fasting wasn’t sustainable for his life, he checked whether a light fast (arguably not a fast at all, but it is an easy term for it) two days a week, would bring the health benefits associated with stricter fasting. It did. It also led to losing weight, which is why it has become so popular.
    Check out the documentary, the book, or many of the articles that have been written about it and you should find all the information.

    Hi Newburk and welcome:

    Many (maybe most) think the term fast means no eating or drinking, but the definition also includes ‘eat only sparingly’. But there is no need to worry about the definition.

    5:2 works because twice a week you cut a significant number of calories from your diet, and if you eat to your TDEE or less the remaining five days you have to lose weight. It is that simple. This post will explain how the calorie numbers work: https://thefastdiet.co.uk/forums/topic/tdee-for-the-curious-or-why-dont-i-lose-weight-faster/

    Good Luck!

    Cinque and simcoeluv have explained the usual 5:2 method to you and provided some excellent sources of background and additional information. There are, however, variations including the Alternate Day Easting described in the documentary.

    I do 5:2 and I do it in probably the way you first anticipated. I do a water fast on Saturdays and Sundays when I can be active at things that interest me and distract me. Then, during the week, I have a large (huge actually) salad of cold vegetables and greens for lunch and a conventional meal of protein (animal protein for me) and veggies for dinner. I feel great during and about my fasts. I enjoy my food days. I mean I can take genuine pleasure in them even though they are sugar and starchy carb free.

    I do it this way because it’s much easier for me than restricting myself to 500 calories. The hunger I experience over the course of 64 hours is minimal and, as Dr. Mosely says in the documentary, it doesn’t get worse and worse, it waxes and wanes. OTOH, if I (that’s me personally not at all necessarily you) if I ate 500 calories I would want 500 more in about an hour and 500 more the next hour and 500 more after that. I would be resisting and fighting that continually. Even if that weren’t the end of my 5:2 program it would make it fairly miserable on a weekly basis whereas I’ve been able to do it with my variation very comfortably and with good success for 5-6 weeks with no reason at all to stop.

    You should start with the guidelines, Newburk, and see how it works for you. If you are left wanting there are other variations including 16:8 (a pattern of fasting and eating within a 24 hour day), alternate days, complete fasting and probably combinations thereof that may be more ideally suited to you.

    And, of course, there is this forum where you can get support, ask more questions and discuss what you’ve found to work. Best of luck with it. Bet you’ll actually feel better the very first week! I know I did!

    Newburk,

    When you consume energy no matter what the activity is or how intense it is, it will always be a mixture of glucose, glycogen and (converted) fat. The ratios will vary between persons and the activity but it is always a mixture of the three energy sources. Obviously if you restrict caloric intake you will increase the glycogen and fat that you use. If you do a complete fast somewhere between 24-48 hours later you will be 100% fat burning as the initial glucose in the blood and the usable glycogen in your muscles will have been used up. So weight loss has to be quicker if your fast is a zero calorie fast.

    I just found it easier to do my fasting as two consecutive days and almost zero calories. At the 36 hour mark I have flipped into ketosis mode. I use keto-sticks (dipped into my urine) to confirm this but basically I can tell when it happens as my stomach runs hot. My liver is now very efficient at flipping into ketosis mode which wasn’t the case initially. I no longer suffer from headaches, a sign that your brain is screaming for glucose or ketones (the brain can only use these two sources for energy). My liver can now crank out ketones pretty easily. After 60 hours fasting (2 days plus 12 hours) my ketone bodies are between 1-4mmol/L. Bang on optimum. That’s when I end my fast. For me its do-able but everyone is different. Find a pattern that works for you.

    Hi Crican

    BigBooty that is the great thing about 5:2 it fits everybody change it around so it works for you. It’s still 5:2 if you’re eating for 5 and fasting for 2.

    I honestly don’t care if you’re doing IF on AF for 24. It’s proven that it works. I’m willing to discuss and I will encourage anyone that wants to seriously get into fasting IF AF 5:2 or 5-10 days fasting a month. Doesn’t matter how you get the fasting in.

    It’s a dead lock that fasting works. For health and for weight loss. I started and maintain I’m doing it for the health benefits. Someone else can do it for weight loss. Honestly I don’t care. I will make you a promise if anyone does 5:2 as written you will lose weight. You will make a new relationship with food. You will change. You will find that you can and will be a stronger person.

    I am concerned that some people have reported no improvement in their cholesterol reading. I am doing the 5:2 for my cholesterol, while appreciating that a little weight loss may come along with it. I do not tolerate statins well, which is frightening, as I must find a way to get my cholesterol number down. And I have always had blood sugar issues, too, so am hoping that will improve. Love this group therapy!

Viewing 26 posts - 1 through 26 (of 26 total)

You must be logged in to reply.